Comments for A Liberal Mormon http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com Liberal politics and social commentary from a distinctly LDS perspective Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:38:11 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU Comment on Feminist Mormon Housewifes: Traditional Marriage is Dead (and it’s a good thing too) by Frank Staheli http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/2008/06/26/feminist-mormon-housewifes-traditional-marriage-is-dead-and-it%e2%80%99s-a-good-thing-too/#comment-7681 Frank Staheli Tue, 08 Jul 2008 23:30:49 +0000 http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/?p=244#comment-7681 To support my above theory, I found the following <a href="http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/public-issues/same-gender-attraction" rel="nofollow">comment by Elder Lance B. Wickman</a> on the LDS Church Newsroom website: <blockquote>As far as something less than that — as far as relationships that give to some pairs in our society some right but not all of those associated with marriage — as to that, as far as I know, the First Presidency hasn’t expressed itself. There are numbers of different types of partnerships or pairings that may exist in society that aren’t same-gender sexual relationships that provide for some right that we have no objection to.</blockquote> To support my above theory, I found the following comment by Elder Lance B. Wickman on the LDS Church Newsroom website:

As far as something less than that — as far as relationships that give to some pairs in our society some right but not all of those associated with marriage — as to that, as far as I know, the First Presidency hasn’t expressed itself. There are numbers of different types of partnerships or pairings that may exist in society that aren’t same-gender sexual relationships that provide for some right that we have no objection to.

]]> Comment on Feminist Mormon Housewifes: Traditional Marriage is Dead (and it’s a good thing too) by Frank Staheli http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/2008/06/26/feminist-mormon-housewifes-traditional-marriage-is-dead-and-it%e2%80%99s-a-good-thing-too/#comment-7680 Frank Staheli Tue, 08 Jul 2008 23:16:44 +0000 http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/?p=244#comment-7680 Hopefully not sounding trite, the "traditional marriage" that I think the LDS Church is standing up for is its understanding of the tradition of Adam, who had the utmost respect for his wife, Eve. The LDS Church teaches a great deal about how men should show such respect to all women and girls in ALL circumstances. Christ never abused or denigrated women, and the LDS Church teaches (Book of Mormon: Alma 13:2) that males as (potential) priesthood holders are to do their best in emulating a Christlike life. The long-standing tradition of marriage is not so pristine. But it is clear that the pristine version of marriage (where the wife is the equal partner, and where the husband would never abuse spouse or children in any way) is what the LDS Church is attempting to promulgate. In this light, I think it important to note that the LDS Church is does not seem to be attempting to denigrate the legal rights that any two women or any two men who wish to have those rights. The Church is, rather, trying to prohibit government-recognized sexual license and to promulgate a healthy view of sexuality, which is that its sacred nature is to be confined to the bounds of marriage between a man and a woman. I think that our society has a ways to go (and I dare be presumptuous enough to say, but I'm not sure, that the LDS church leadership would agree with me) to secure the deserved legal rights, such as hospital visitation, insurance benefits, etc. for "domestic partnerships". But the Church can no more stand idly by when a government entity grants, in addition to those rights, the license to homosexual promiscuity, than it could when governments granted license to heterosexual promiscuity through such decisions as no-fault divorce and cohabitation laws. I think the existing evidence is clear that any sort of sexual promiscuity, when it becomes pervasive enough, will ultimately help to cause the downfall of society. It already has in many smaller areas of the country. Hopefully not sounding trite, the “traditional marriage” that I think the LDS Church is standing up for is its understanding of the tradition of Adam, who had the utmost respect for his wife, Eve. The LDS Church teaches a great deal about how men should show such respect to all women and girls in ALL circumstances. Christ never abused or denigrated women, and the LDS Church teaches (Book of Mormon: Alma 13:2) that males as (potential) priesthood holders are to do their best in emulating a Christlike life.

The long-standing tradition of marriage is not so pristine. But it is clear that the pristine version of marriage (where the wife is the equal partner, and where the husband would never abuse spouse or children in any way) is what the LDS Church is attempting to promulgate. In this light, I think it important to note that the LDS Church is does not seem to be attempting to denigrate the legal rights that any two women or any two men who wish to have those rights. The Church is, rather, trying to prohibit government-recognized sexual license and to promulgate a healthy view of sexuality, which is that its sacred nature is to be confined to the bounds of marriage between a man and a woman.

I think that our society has a ways to go (and I dare be presumptuous enough to say, but I’m not sure, that the LDS church leadership would agree with me) to secure the deserved legal rights, such as hospital visitation, insurance benefits, etc. for “domestic partnerships”. But the Church can no more stand idly by when a government entity grants, in addition to those rights, the license to homosexual promiscuity, than it could when governments granted license to heterosexual promiscuity through such decisions as no-fault divorce and cohabitation laws. I think the existing evidence is clear that any sort of sexual promiscuity, when it becomes pervasive enough, will ultimately help to cause the downfall of society. It already has in many smaller areas of the country.

]]> Comment on Gayle Ruzicka’s Crusade Against Gardasil by Frank Staheli http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/2007/04/17/vaccine/#comment-7679 Frank Staheli Tue, 08 Jul 2008 22:09:27 +0000 http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/2007/04/17/vaccine/#comment-7679 We should not force innoculation. But we should let them choose. For Gayle Ruzicka to say that "we shouldn't inoculate them against bad behavior" is way wide of the mark. Children who are sexually active have enough problems as it is. I used to belong to Eagle Forum (and I still count them as friends), but I stopped associating with them when I was invited to their Christmas party one year, and it seemed as though they relished discussing how many enemies they had and how they were going to defeat them. (This is why I'm not surprised at their defense of Sen. Chris Buttars' recent racist comment in the legislature--because he seems to concoct and share the same enemies.) Interestingly, after a several-year hiatus, I received a Christmas card from Gayle Ruzicka this past year inviting me to come to their Christmas party! My wife and I didn't go. ;-) We should not force innoculation. But we should let them choose. For Gayle Ruzicka to say that “we shouldn’t inoculate them against bad behavior” is way wide of the mark. Children who are sexually active have enough problems as it is.

I used to belong to Eagle Forum (and I still count them as friends), but I stopped associating with them when I was invited to their Christmas party one year, and it seemed as though they relished discussing how many enemies they had and how they were going to defeat them.

(This is why I’m not surprised at their defense of Sen. Chris Buttars’ recent racist comment in the legislature–because he seems to concoct and share the same enemies.)

Interestingly, after a several-year hiatus, I received a Christmas card from Gayle Ruzicka this past year inviting me to come to their Christmas party!

My wife and I didn’t go. ;-)

]]> Comment on Jeffery Nielsen Courageously Takes Another Public Stand by Mary Danzig http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/jeffery-nielsen-courageously-takes-another-public-stand/#comment-7678 Mary Danzig Tue, 08 Jul 2008 04:28:28 +0000 http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/?p=249#comment-7678 As one who has experienced first hand what can happen when a person speaks their conscience in opposition to the LDS Church I express my deep admiration for Jeffrey Nielsen's bravery. It is not something done lightly. It can be agonizing and heartbreaking. There are times when people who love the LDS Church deeply, after much prayer and soulsearching find themselves disagreeing in some way their conscience does not allow them to ignore. A new website has been created to give people in the LDS Community a place to express their feelings on this issue. The site is www.signingforsomething.org This site has been put together by a diverse group of people ranging from active LDS to resigned members of the church. If you care about this issue, please check out the site. As one who has experienced first hand what can happen when a person speaks their conscience in opposition to the LDS Church I express my deep admiration for Jeffrey Nielsen’s bravery. It is not something done lightly. It can be agonizing and heartbreaking. There are times when people who love the LDS Church deeply, after much prayer and soulsearching find themselves disagreeing in some way their conscience does not allow them to ignore. A new website has been created to give people in the LDS Community a place to express their feelings on this issue. The site is http://www.signingforsomething.org
This site has been put together by a diverse group of people ranging from active LDS to resigned members of the church. If you care about this issue, please check out the site.

]]> Comment on Jeffery Nielsen Courageously Takes Another Public Stand by Aaron Orgill http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/jeffery-nielsen-courageously-takes-another-public-stand/#comment-7677 Aaron Orgill Mon, 07 Jul 2008 15:49:32 +0000 http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/?p=249#comment-7677 Red, dude, no one's arguing with you. Everyone knows what the Church teaches. You don't need to pound it in. Red, dude, no one’s arguing with you. Everyone knows what the Church teaches. You don’t need to pound it in.

]]> Comment on Jeffery Nielsen Courageously Takes Another Public Stand by red http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/jeffery-nielsen-courageously-takes-another-public-stand/#comment-7676 red Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:52:03 +0000 http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/?p=249#comment-7676 I read the article and you're right same-gender attraction is not a sin if not acted upon. However my position is that when a man and a man or a woman and a woman enter into marriage and they act upon their feelings it is against the law of chastity just as a person who fornicates or commits adultery it is against the law of chastity and the church does not uphold those who break this law. I would like to think gay couples who enter into civil unions or marriage would not act upon their "feelings" as Elder Holland puts it but I think that is few and far between. Either way we will always have a choice of how we act on feelings we do have. I read the article and you’re right same-gender attraction is not a sin if not acted upon. However my position is that when a man and a man or a woman and a woman enter into marriage and they act upon their feelings it is against the law of chastity just as a person who fornicates or commits adultery it is against the law of chastity and the church does not uphold those who break this law. I would like to think gay couples who enter into civil unions or marriage would not act upon their “feelings” as Elder Holland puts it but I think that is few and far between. Either way we will always have a choice of how we act on feelings we do have.

]]> Comment on Jeffery Nielsen Courageously Takes Another Public Stand by Inimitable Mormon http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/jeffery-nielsen-courageously-takes-another-public-stand/#comment-7675 Inimitable Mormon Mon, 07 Jul 2008 00:10:30 +0000 http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/?p=249#comment-7675 Red, I have always had a problem with people who compare being gay to an alcoholic or drug user. If you look at the life of an alcoholic, they have to drink usually for a substantial part of there life and they chose to begin drinking. Homosexuals never chose to begin to like the same sex, that came natural. I think you should really do your research before you say that being gay is against the churches teachings. Elder Holland states, "...same-gender attraction [being gay] is not a sin, but acting on those feelings is." So, like you said, we choose who we lay in bed with but you are very inaccurate to state that we choose the beginnings of our sexuality. Again, please do more research and read Elder Holland's full article which was in the October (I think) Ensign. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=2784ba12dc825110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1 Red, I have always had a problem with people who compare being gay to an alcoholic or drug user. If you look at the life of an alcoholic, they have to drink usually for a substantial part of there life and they chose to begin drinking. Homosexuals never chose to begin to like the same sex, that came natural. I think you should really do your research before you say that being gay is against the churches teachings. Elder Holland states, “…same-gender attraction [being gay] is not a sin, but acting on those feelings is.”

So, like you said, we choose who we lay in bed with but you are very inaccurate to state that we choose the beginnings of our sexuality. Again, please do more research and read Elder Holland’s full article which was in the October (I think) Ensign.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=2784ba12dc825110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1

]]> Comment on Jeffery Nielsen Courageously Takes Another Public Stand by Red http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/jeffery-nielsen-courageously-takes-another-public-stand/#comment-7674 Red Sun, 06 Jul 2008 21:22:05 +0000 http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/?p=249#comment-7674 courageous for having an opinion eh.......sounds more like free speech than courage to me..........however the good prof. nielsen does have an interesting argument but it falls short when he states that "I do not believe that people choose their sexual orientation any more than they choose their skin color or gender." I have an issue with that statement because we make our own choices and ARE personally responsible for them. WE choose who we lie down with at night, just as the Alcoholic chooses to have another beer...........if people want to be gay or drink they can be my guest because that is their decision but they are going against what the church teaches. The church has a right to stand on the principles it teaches and encourage members to up hold its teachings courageous for having an opinion eh…….sounds more like free speech than courage to me……….however the good prof. nielsen does have an interesting argument but it falls short when he states that “I do not believe that people choose their sexual orientation any more than they choose their skin color or gender.” I have an issue with that statement because we make our own choices and ARE personally responsible for them. WE choose who we lie down with at night, just as the Alcoholic chooses to have another beer………..if people want to be gay or drink they can be my guest because that is their decision but they are going against what the church teaches. The church has a right to stand on the principles it teaches and encourage members to up hold its teachings

]]> Comment on Jeffery Nielsen Courageously Takes Another Public Stand by Aaron Orgill http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/jeffery-nielsen-courageously-takes-another-public-stand/#comment-7673 Aaron Orgill Sun, 06 Jul 2008 20:42:34 +0000 http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/?p=249#comment-7673 Inimitable, I am glad you had a loving bishop and that you are still a member of the Church. It is important for each of us to remember not to be so mean and harsh. Let's expand on your words and say that each word we say about our brothers and sisters, whether about their sexuality, their bad tempers, or their tendency to gossip or cheat or swear, can be hurtful and "a knife to the heart". Be careful when following your heart. Sometimes our hearts tell us to do things that we want to do but have tragic consequences. Perhaps you are using the term "heart" interchangeably with the Spirit. If so, great. But I have experienced someone very closely to me following their heart, and it led to a lot of suffering. As we are told in the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord "will tell you in your heart and in your mind". Good luck with dealing with what you have on your plate. I hope your life becomes everything you ever hoped for and more. Inimitable, I am glad you had a loving bishop and that you are still a member of the Church. It is important for each of us to remember not to be so mean and harsh. Let’s expand on your words and say that each word we say about our brothers and sisters, whether about their sexuality, their bad tempers, or their tendency to gossip or cheat or swear, can be hurtful and “a knife to the heart”.

Be careful when following your heart. Sometimes our hearts tell us to do things that we want to do but have tragic consequences. Perhaps you are using the term “heart” interchangeably with the Spirit. If so, great. But I have experienced someone very closely to me following their heart, and it led to a lot of suffering. As we are told in the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord “will tell you in your heart and in your mind”. Good luck with dealing with what you have on your plate. I hope your life becomes everything you ever hoped for and more.

]]> Comment on Jeffery Nielsen Courageously Takes Another Public Stand by Inimitable Mormon http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/jeffery-nielsen-courageously-takes-another-public-stand/#comment-7670 Inimitable Mormon Sun, 06 Jul 2008 05:26:31 +0000 http://aliberalmormon.wordpress.com/?p=249#comment-7670 I want to first thank you for being so kind and thinking from your heart rather then your mind. I have come to learn over trials and my coming out process that when you do what your heart tells you, you are doing the right thing; and your heart will always tell you to love. I just want those who disapprove of gays and/or gay marriage, to remember Christ's life. He always said 'Come unto me,' and do we not believe in the LDS faith that we MUST become like Christ? He always dealt with love. Through the power of love from my Bishop, I am still a member of this church and I know that each word you say against your spiritual brother or sister, indirectly or not, about their sexuality is as if it were a knife directly to the heart. We are all a family, and when negative words come out, we take it personally because of this belief. Don't let your pride get to you. Always remember to love. I want to first thank you for being so kind and thinking from your heart rather then your mind. I have come to learn over trials and my coming out process that when you do what your heart tells you, you are doing the right thing; and your heart will always tell you to love.

I just want those who disapprove of gays and/or gay marriage, to remember Christ’s life. He always said ‘Come unto me,’ and do we not believe in the LDS faith that we MUST become like Christ? He always dealt with love. Through the power of love from my Bishop, I am still a member of this church and I know that each word you say against your spiritual brother or sister, indirectly or not, about their sexuality is as if it were a knife directly to the heart. We are all a family, and when negative words come out, we take it personally because of this belief.

Don’t let your pride get to you. Always remember to love.

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