Rocky vs. Hannity

I just finished listening to the Rocky vs. Hannity slugfest at Kingsbury Hall, broadcast on KSL. The exchange was just about what I expected, and pretty much encapsulated a great deal of what has turned me away from the conservative crowd over to the liberal.

Rocky was animated and passionate. But he focused his remarks on the topic of the event: the impeachment of President Bush. His statements were based on facts and built a case. You may disagree with the case, but it was a logically presented case. He did not resort to generalizations, even legitimate ones, about conservatives or liberals. He refused to make it that sort of partisan presentation. While he harshly criticized the President’s actions, he did not mock them or resort to ad hominem attacks on the president. While he challenged Hannity, he rarely demeaned or assailed Hannity himself.

Hannity, on the other hand, was snide and smarmy. Much of his time was spent side issues and diversions to the topic of impeachment. He began his presentation with ad hominem attacks on Rocky, and continued to make those attacks throughout the debate. He made frequent slanderous generalizations about liberals, Democrats, and progressives. He tried to impugn Rocky by associating Rocky with the high profile Democrats (a charge which failed miserably. Had he done his homework, Hannity would have realized that Rocky is a maverick Democrat with no patience for the moderates and conciliators who dominate the party. Hannity ignorantly claimed that Kerry was Rocky’s friend and assumed Rocky had voted for Kerry, when Rocky in reality voted for Nader). He mocked both Clintons, when neither had anything to do with the issue at hand. Rather than discuss the merits or lack thereof of the impeachment movement, he framed the issue as an obsessive hatred of the President (ironic, considering how the conservative establishment treated President Clinton). When he did address the topic, he did so vaguely, with little recourse to rational argument. Instead, Hannity relied on the weapons which have been so common among the conservative advocates throughout my life: fear, jingoism masquerading as patriotism, macho appeals to pride, and oversimplification of international events into terms of winning and losing.

Neither side was perfect. Rocky tended to ramble on and chafe against the time restrictions to which he had agreed. Rocky’s supporters in the audience were a bit more inconsiderate—a fact which gave Hannity the opportunity to play martyr, making a great show of pointing out when he was subject to hecklers (Rocky had his share, but tended more often just to ignore them).

I’m sure that there will be others who saw things differently, and that Hannity will spin this this way and that on his shows over the next few days. But for myself, the debate only reaffirmed the feelings I’ve had again and again over the years. While there are certainly obnoxious and mean-spirited apologists on the Left (such as Randy Rhoades and Tom Hartman), the bulk of the champions of the Left to whom I’ve been exposed (Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Ralph Nader, Bill Moyers, Molly Ivins, Jim Hightower, Dennis Kucinich, Paul Wellstone, etc) are rational and can engage in a rational discussion. They address topics. They may be passionate, but maintain an atmosphere of civility. The great majority of conservative advocates to whom I’ve been exposed (Hannity, Limbaugh, Savage, Coulter, O’Reilly, Cannon, Hatch, DeLay, Gingrich, the top officials in the Bush administration, etc) seem to have little interest in rational debate. They prefer to rely on slander and the emotional distractions. Their mean-spirited and rancorous attacks belie all their claims of piety and religion. The churlish tone, avoidance of any substantive discussion, and arrogant demeanor displayed tonight are in no way connected to the Savior about whom I read in the scriptures. Rocky was no humble embodiment of gentle persuasion and love unfeigned, but he was far closer than his opponent.

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220 Responses to “Rocky vs. Hannity”

  1. Jessica Says:

    Are you kidding me? First of all, member of the church like you are disgracful. How can a member of the church, with the values and ehtics set forth by the church conducive to “being a liberal” It is an oximoron.

    Second, Hannity did just what you said he didn’t. Rocky’s case is hindsight and unproductive. Hannity explain and proved why an impeachment of Bush wouldn’t be fair. The mere fact that calling President Bush a war criminal is counterproductive to the war that is going on right now. The croud was silent for the first time during Sean’s video both of Hilary and the dead Iraqi’s. How someone could not be humnle and instantaneous awoken to the fact that it DOESN”T MATTER if there is any credibility in the spewage exuded from Rocky’s mouth was credible or not. The damage he and his “liberal friends” are doing by defiling the commander and chief is of catastrophic consequences. It is counter productive an shameful.

    Personally, I want the terroists to think we torture regardless if we do or not. I personally don’t care. Send them anywhere but here for inprisonment. Do you want them in your back yard, at your county or state prison? Come on…we are the most powerful country in the nation, when did that become a bad thing? If we lose that, we are headed for ultimate destruction. The constitution will be hanging by a thread, and you of all people should know that is fortold by Prophets ancient and modern. Therefore, how can you being a member of the church live with yourself knowing that you are deconstructing and contributing to the breakdown this great nation. Just as conspracy and and tradegy has occured in the Church so does it in Washington. That doesn’t mean that it is justifiable to jump on the band wagon of Mormon bashing or Bush bashing…..it’s APOSTACY!!!! It may be your constitutional right to be this stupid, but it is not without it’s consequences both here and in the eyes of the Lord.

    Try praying about this…I can’t imagine Heavenly Father condoning such behavior as you and other members of the Church do which is defiling the Country and it’s leaders. Let Him be the judge, mean while, you should be the better person and rise above this harmful rhetoric which only contribute to the problem and dilinqency of this great nation. Our emenies are one again uplifted and fueled by our countries own dissent of out government. This behavior in UNEXCEPTABLE!!!!!! You will be held accountable for YOUR contribution to this problem, and Bush will as well.

  2. Derek Staffanson Says:

    So you think that the Lord would be fine with a war based on lies and the torture of his children, but would chastize me and other liberals for speaking out against behaviors we see as immoral? Sorry, I don’t see it.

  3. Emily Says:

    Jessica,

    I’m sorry, but I am also LDS and I take great offense to what you are saying.

    Our “Commander in Chief” has defiled himself. He didn’t need any help from Rocky or any other liberal friend.

    And speaking out against the president, the war, has nothing to do with being a good Mormon. Supporting the US president is *not* the same as supporting a prophet of God.

  4. george fisher Says:

    I am happy to be “disgraceful” too as I am a liberal Mormon and so is President Faust. He has described himself as a liberal in a number of ways. Bush is an idiot and Hanity seldom approaches anything close to the truth. Rocky can be over the top on things but he is far closer to the reality of the situation in Iraq than most give him credit for. By the way I served 5 1/2 years as and LDS bishop in Centerville. Saturday PM’s I am in the Bountiful Temple each week as and ordinance worker. It is possible jessica to be a liberal and Mormon.

    Thanks for the honesty ‘Liberal Mormon’ glad there are a few others out there.

  5. Part of the Plan Says:

    Jessica, unlike the other commenters, I’m on to you. This was satire, right? Ha ha! How else could you accuse someone else of being “stupid” while using all these non-existent words: “disgracful”, “oximoron”, “croud”, “humnle”, “spewage”, “terroists” (sounds like Elmer Fudd, doesn’t it?), “inprisonment”, “conspracy and and tradegy”, “dilinqency” and my personal favorite, “UNEXCEPTABLE!!!!!!”

    Come on, “Jessica”, tell the truth…you’re really a sockpuppet for Sean Hannity, aren’t you?

    Because if my theory is wrong and you are actually being sincere, here’s a newsflash that may be of interest to you: this is THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, by golly, not The Islamic Republic of Iran where folks indeed are not allowed to disagree with their government. Perhaps if you feel so strongly about the need for church and state to be one and the same, you might consider converting to Islam and relocating to Teheran. You’d feel right at home there.

  6. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    I grew up LDS, and am fortunate to have a very large extended family who were good, decent people of the faith. There were many times I wish I could have accepted the authority of the church, but alas, I could not. However, when I read through the New Testament I was overcome and surprised by the spiritual truths contained there.

    Take some time and go back to read that. I don’t believe that Jesus was God, or that he was the son of God in any “special” way, but I do believe he was a spiritual giant, radically different from any before him, any of his contemporaries, and frankly, any since. He spoke of humility, and the many dangers that faced us all. Dangers like ostentatious displays of faith and generosity, and confusing divinity and materialism. He spoke of peace. He spoke of the dangers of wealth, pomp and prestige, and how they can become your reward instead of any true connection with God.

    Now look at people like Sean Hannity and his ilk: He trades on the religious faith, sentimentality, patriotism and fear of us all. He and others like him bear no likeness to true conservatives, Christians or their principles. He is a demagogue of the worst sort.

    If one is to pray, let them pray to have their self-righteous indignation and judgmental fury removed from them. Let them pray to separate their religious faith from a political movement which deliberately seeks to use them as a loyal voting block by trading on (corrupting) their religious faith.

    Not once have I heard a Republican demagogue or on of their fierce supporters passionately rail on about the need to help the poor, set aside prejudice and bias, or do anything to make abortion unnecessary. Only that liberals are evil baby killers and it must be illegal. (On the other hand, I have heard the LDS *Church* make these efforts.. I have seen them run advertising and set up programs to encourage adoption instead of abortion, to encourage abstinence, etc..) But the angry militant Christian? They’re too blinded by their own righteousness to ameliorate the problem. It’s so much easier to point fingers at secularists and call them baby killers than actually care about the social problem. So much easier to hate an enemy than solve a problem.

    Somehow, if one were to listen to this new breed of militant Christian, Jesus now is a die-hard American who opposes all other nations except, perhaps, Israel and the UK. He now stands in favor of cutting capital gains taxes, torturing enemies, expanding the scope of war, granting Republicans unchecked, plenary powers in government, and …. whatever else may be on the Republican agenda.

    It is, perhaps, the most vulgar corruption of all when religious faith and spiritual ideals are fused to a political agenda. Proudly brandishing its moral superiority while taking actions in direct contradiction to their faith. It’s always explainable or rationalized in some way, but isn’t it interesting that it’s always justified to support the political agenda, and never the divine. Token gestures are made to keep the faithful onboard, but in the end, I think a whole lot of people have simply been duped.

    The only ray of hope I see is that because of the sheer magnitude of deception, self-seeing and evil being done in the name of religion is starting to make a few people question this unholy amalgam of Republicanism and Christianity, and they’re starting to fight back. Thank you, “liberal Mormon,” for having the courage to be one of them.

    DS

  7. Jessica Says:

    Okay, I won’t participate in a pissing contest, however, wars are apart of histaory since the preexistence. If Bush was seeking a war because of malicious intent, so be it. He will be held responsible for that. I however, want to preserve the country and it’s soviergnty. Didn’t you see the pictures of the innocent women and children gased by Saddam and his regime? Or the mass graves, where the Iraqi’s were sobbing for their loved ones. THAT is malice. We will never live in a mortal world without war. There is constantly a war going on between good and evil. Between Satan and Jesus Christ. The troops are not to blame, the President is not to blame for Saddam’s or ANY terroist group. You liberals only focus on Bush and his administration. You bash him more than you do the evil in the world. Those who blow up themselves and their children without a second thought. THOSE are who you should be enraged at.

    The point is, it’s not as important as how we got here as it is what do we do now? Pulling out of Iraq without giving it one more chance to bring a bit more peace in that region is what we owe all of those innocent women and children. Sean Hannity is a great American. His passion and LOVE for this country is phenominal. He wants to protect us, remain a soverign nation, preserve life, marriage and the family. Isn’t that what conservatism is all about? Conservatives= personal responsibility, anti-abortion, family values, abstinence, sanctity of marriage….do you guys realize that the democratic party has now sold themselves to George Soros who supports groups like the ACLU, NAMBLA, and a boat load of other, vial, evil and digusting organizations? All you have to do is Google it.
    Liberals= pro-choice, protected sex, not abstinence, gay rights…how is that conducive to the LDS doctrine. I don’t care who else is liberal. Relativity does not, can not exist between liberals and the Church. It’s a conflict of interest. Look, I’m probably not going to change your minds. But I am embarrased and ashamed of people like Harry Reid who REALLY SHOULD BE CONVICTED OF TREASON.
    People like you folks scare me. It’s mind boggling to me. I pray that someone gets elected in 08 that stands for family values, and not a liberal who is paid for by people like George Soros.
    Please, if you take anything out of this just do this one thing for me…remember this entry when the constitution is hanging by a thread because secualr progressives hate this country and want to reform it into a socialist’s eutopia. Dispicable.

  8. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    Jessica, your posts are embarrassingly riddled with Hannity/Limbaugh/Beck/O’Reilly talking points. You are truly their target, and they truly have nailed you. If there is anything that is despicable, it is using ones faith to justify the selfishness, incompetence and power of a political party which could really care less about you.

    You’re not a conservative. Look it up. “google” it, as you say. How many Republican scandals have surfaced in the last year alone? Are they all simply diabolical machinations of the “liberal media”? Grow up.

    The ironic part is that you and the modern Republican have made moral and intellectual relativism the rule of the day. Keep on righteously screaming at those who don’t think gays should be barred from marrying, keep on doing nothing about the abortion issue except screaming at those who say making it illegal isn’t going to solve anything, keep on dehumanizing homosexuals, keep on tying your religious faith to a handful of issues for which you really don’t seem to care about except as a means to self-righteously rail on about.

    It is laughable that you call yourself a Christian or a Conservative. You have no concept of either.

    This is a classic line:

    “remember this entry when the constitution is hanging by a thread because secualr progressives hate this country and want to reform it into a socialist’s eutopia.”

    What the hell does that mean? Explain how “secular progressives” hate this country? I’m a “secular progressive” and I neither hate this country nor want to turn it into a socialist state. You can parrot “George Soros” as though it’s a magic code for “evil” all you want, but if you can’t actually support anything you say, then what good is it?

    If Christianity is reviled by any segment of the population, it’s because people like you claim it and misrepresent it. I am fortunate enough to realize that you have about as much to do with Christian principles as I have to do with the daily operations of the Whitehouse.

    Hannity doesn’t want to protect you. He wants to use you. And you know what? He’s doing a bang up job of it.

    DS

  9. Jessica Says:

    Unbelievable! Good luck to all of you! Sean is a great American, and I love him. The language used to be make a point! I am sincere. I am sincere to the troops who you are insincere to. No thank you in regards to trying to pursuade me into questioning gospel doctrine. I am quite content. I know the difference between right and wrong. Thanks.

  10. Jessica Says:

    http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/10/18/041018fa_fact3

    The Money Man
    Can George Soros’s millions insure the defeat of President Bush?
    by Jane Mayer
    October 18, 2004 Text Size:
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    Soros, George; Billionaires; Philanthropists; Hungary, Hungarians; Bush, George W. (Pres.) (43rd); Aspen Institute; Democrats, Democratic Party On August 6th, a week after the Democratic Convention, a clandestine summit meeting took place at the Aspen Institute, in Colorado’s Rocky Mountains. The participants, all Democrats, were sworn to secrecy, and few of them will discuss the event. One thing that is certain, however, is that the guests formed a tableau that not many people would associate with the Democratic Party of the past. Five billionaires joined half a dozen liberal leaders in a lengthy conversation about the future of progressive politics in America. The billionaires were not especially close socially, nor were they in complete agreement about politics or strategy. Yet they shared a common goal: to use their fortunes to engineer the defeat of President George W. Bush in the 2004 election.

    “No one was supposed to know about this,” an assistant to one participant told me, declining to be named. “We don’t want people thinking it’s a cabal, or some sort of Masonic plot!” His concern was understandable: the prospect of rich men concentrating their wealth in order to sway an American election was an inflammatory one, particularly given the Democratic Party’s populist rhetoric. This private meeting of plutocrats was an unintended consequence of the McCain-Feingold campaign-finance-reform law of 2002. Previously, wealthy donors had contributed “soft money” to the political parties, which controlled how the funds were spent. The reform legislation had banned such gifts, forcing donors to find new ways of influencing the political process.

    The meeting’s organizer was Peter B. Lewis, the seventy-year-old reclusive chairman of the Progressive Corporation, an insurance company based in Cleveland, Ohio. He has spent much of 2004 discreetly directing millions of dollars to liberal groups allied with the Democratic Party, such as America Coming Together and MoveOn.org, while cruising the Mediterranean Sea on his two-hundred-and-fifty-foot yacht, Lone Ranger. The yacht has communications equipment that allows Lewis to monitor political developments in America while sunbathing off the coast of Italy. Lewis, a major backer of efforts to decriminalize marijuana, has helped underwrite campaigns to hold referenda on decriminalization in Arizona and California. (In 2000, he was arrested in New Zealand for possessing marijuana.) According to Lewis’s friends, he concluded that it would be best to remain a shadow figure in the 2004 campaign; he has declined all requests for interviews.

    Flying in from Arizona was John Sperling, an octogenarian businessman who in 1976 created the for-profit University of Phoenix. Sperling is also the co-author of a recent book, “The Great Divide: Retro vs. Metro America,” which suggests that the 2004 election is a contest between “ ‘God, Family, and Flag’ folks”—who live in the South, the Great Plains, the Rockies, and Appalachia—and forward-thinking metropolitans who support “economic modernity,” “religious moderation,” and “excellence in education and science.”

    Herb and Marion Sandler, a California couple in their seventies, came to Aspen looking for ways to give back to a country that had allowed them to prosper. The founders of Golden West Financial Corporation, a savings-and-loan company worth seventeen billion dollars, the Sandlers are devoted to the idea of preserving progressive income taxes and inheritance taxes.

    from the issuecartoon banke-mail thisThe wealthiest participant at this meeting of hard-core partisans—and the one whose presence was the most surprising—was George Soros, the seventy-four-year-old Wall Street speculator turned philanthropist. Soros, who was born in Budapest in 1930, is short, with a crest of gray hair, owlish glasses surrounding blue eyes, and a hearing aid in one ear. At Aspen, his deep Hungarian accent, and his taste for abstract ideas, made him seem like a European professor who had walked into the wrong seminar. “The participants kind of talked past each other,” a person who attended the meeting told me.

    To the distress of some of the strategists present, the billionaires spent much of the time bemoaning the superior powers of the G.O.P. In exasperation, one participant, Harold Ickes, Bill Clinton’s former deputy chief of staff, attempted to rally the group with a look back at liberalism’s legacy of achievement, from the civil-rights era to the feminist movement. Much remained to be accomplished, he suggested.

    Sperling proposed a potential new project for the group: unionizing Wal-Mart workers. Soros, however, had no interest in union drives. He wanted to stay focussed on the main objective—ousting Bush. Yet he also warned the group against the idea of combatting right-wing propaganda with leftist demagoguery. “I do not have an interest in replacing one extremist movement with another,” he said.

    Andrew Stern, the president of the Service Employees International Union, a holdover from the traditional working-class base of the Democratic Party, was also at the summit. In an interview not long ago, he conceded that consorting with billionaires had become a strange but increasingly common part of his job. “I have to admit, I used to think I was doing well when I met millionaires,” he said. “I’m glad we’ve got the billionaires with us. But it did feel a bit odd.”

    George Soros immigrated to America from London in 1956, then went on to launch the Quantum Fund, one of the world’s first private hedge funds. For the past two decades, he has been among the wealthiest men in the world. Forbes currently ranks him as America’s twenty-fourth-richest person, and estimates his fortune to be $7.2 billion. Soros’s Wall Street background makes him a relatively rare figure in the world of Democratic donors. Hollywood liberals and trial lawyers have long made large contributions to liberal causes, but financiers are less often associated with a desire to upend the status quo. Soros himself is new to campaign politics: this is his first large-scale involvement in an American Presidential election.

  11. Jessica Says:

    Phil Brennan, NewsMax.com
    Thursday, Aug. 17, 2006

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    Book Review: “The Shadow Party: How George Soros, Hillary Clinton and Sixties Radicals Seized Control of the Democratic Party”
    Authors: David Horowitz and Richard Poe
    Publisher: Nelson Current

    David Horowitz, it seems, writes a book about every other day.

    And while all his works have been vitally important contributions to the nation’s security and welfare, this new book he’s penned with Richard Poe sounds an alarm bell that should be heard far and wide.

    David Horowitz is a self-described “red diaper baby,” the son of dedicated communists and an ex-communist himself. He has been sounding the alarm about the powerful influence exercised by leftist professors on America’s campuses and the rebirth of communism under the guise of the so-called “progressive” movement in such books as his most recent “The Professors – the 100 Most Dangerous Academics in America.”

    In “The Shadow Party,” Horowitz and co-author Richard Poe point to the man behind the growing leftist control of the national Democratic party – George Soros.

    To many Americans, George Soros is merely a billionaire whose name appears frequently in the media in connection with left-of-center political matters. He is, in their minds, just another one of those wealthy dilettantes who dabble in politics as a diversion from their fervent pursuit of the almighty dollar.

    The George Soros we meet in “The Shadow Party,” however, is far more than that.

    He might just be the most dangerous man in America, a frenzied leftist ideologue with both a surfeit of the money – an estimated $33 billion – and the brains needed to use his money skillfully to impose his twisted will on the United States and the world.

    Horowitz and Poe meticulously expose the incredibly sophisticated and successful undercover network Soros has been able to construct with his almost unlimited wealth – a network that has captured the Democratic Party, as the primary defeat of Sen. Joe Lieberman has just demonstrated.

    Critics describe Lieberman’s defeat at the hands of a far-out leftist as an indication of the power over the Democratic Party of the crazed left, exemplified by the Soros funded MoveOn.org’s involvement in the Connecticut primary, but it was much more than that.

    It was Soros’ Shadow Party in action, and that party has managed to swallow the Democratic Party whole.

    It all but owns it now.

    Story Continues Below

    Soros, the authors say, is the father of the “progressive” revolution which is steadily undermining American unity. Wrote the authors, “‘Progressive’ activists have been carrying out a broad-ranging infiltration of American political and cultural institutions for 40 years. Now the effects of that infiltration can be seen in the inability of America’s political leaders to form a united front against a clear military threat from abroad.”

    In Soros, this revolution, like the one that established Russia’s Soviet Communist government, has its own “Lenin.”

    Wrote the authors “George Soros is the architect of the ‘Shadow Party’ which operates much like a network of holding companies coordinating the disparate branches of this movement, both inside and outside the Democratic Party, and leading them toward the goal of securing state power. Once attained, that power will be used to effect a global transformation – economic, social, and political – a post-Berlin Wall reincarnation of the old radical dream.”

    Principal among those Soros has chosen to advance his grandiose dreams, are Hillary Clinton and mob lawyer and ex-Clinton administration operative Harold Ickes, whose shadowy career is carefully examined.

    Together with a cadre of Soros aides strategically placed in key managerial positions in a network of private think tanks, foundations, unions, stealth political action committees, and other front groups that exist only to carry out Soros’ sinister plans for America and the world, they dutifully dance to his tune.

    The authors discuss Soros’ plan to rewrite the U.S. Constitution, and the Shadow Party’s contributions of a staggering $300 million in the 2004 elections meant to defeat George Bush. They move on to Soros’ plan to use think tanks and foundations to push through campaign finance reform that helped add millions to the coffers of left wing groups while eroding the political liberties of conservatives, and it’s plans to win the White House in 2008.

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    In an exclusive interview with David Horowitz, NewsMax fleshed out the Shadow Party’s intentions.
    NewsMax: Just how dangerous is George Soros?

    David Horowitz: I think he’s pretty damned dangerous.

    Soros says the main principle threat to the world is not terrorism but American supremacy. He does not identify with the United States, nor do any of these open-borders-type. He thinks of himself as a world citizen and we are the problem. I think he’s very dangerous.

    He has overthrown many governments – he’s gotten away with a lot. He broke the Bank of England, for example. He’s played high stakes with governments and he’s prepared to do what it takes to bring down the regime we have in America. He’s somebody to be taken very seriously.

    NewsMax: What are his beliefs about the U.S.?

    David Horowitz: In his view the Republicans are radical extremists.

    Those are dangerous words right there.

    He regards the Bush administration as a radical administration. He has this hatred of George Bush. Bush-hatred is a displacement of hatred for the United States.

    NewsMax: If he succeeds in helping the Democrats win control of Congress after the November elections what would you expect to happen?

    David Horowitz: I think they’d begin with a impeachment process and investigations. Remember, the Democrats have sabotaged the war on terror from the beginning without having control of the Congress. Imagine what they’ll do when they get control.

    NewsMax: “How will they affect domestic policy?

    David Horowitz: Domestic policy pales in comparison to the war on terror. We’re in the beginnings of World War III. We now have a major enemy in Iran which is backed by the Arab world – not wholly – but by and large.

    These governments in Saudi Arabia and Egypt may not stand against a determined attack from the Islamicists.

    We have a volatile country in Pakistan, a potentially antagonistic one in Indonesia. There’s a big battle going on in the Islamic world. We have a hostile Russia, and a hostile China and a hostile North Korea.

    These are very serious times and the post-Joe Lieberman Democrats clearly think that the fault [for all this] is ours. Listen to them talk.

    Listen to Soros and any of them and if there are terrorists in the world we created them. It’s our fault that there are terrorists.

    That’s their argument.

    They will obstruct the war on terror and present a posture of weakness towards the Islamofascist enemy.

    NewsMax: What is Soros ultimate aim?

    David Horowitz: They already have a plan to create a global welfare state – the United States will put up the money and they’ll allegedly use it for wealth redistribution, but what it will really be used for is creating a bigger international left.

    One of the things we show in “The Shadow Party” is how they use the welfare great society to fund these organizations like the National Welfare Rights organization which became ACORN.

    The left is bigger, stronger, and more organized today than ever in its history and it’s because it’s been funded by the American taxpayer through these kind of schemes.

    George Soros has put together what is really epic making on his part – he’s put together an organization – a shadow party that consists of anti-American billionaires, mob-run unions and government unions, 60s radicals who want a revolution in this country, and the heart of the Democratic party apparatus – Podesta, Ickes, and company.

    That’s what’s frightening. The Democratic party is now the party of [30s radical] Henry Wallace. It is a radical party. And as Rudy Giuliani said the other night, it’s a left-wing party.

    They don’t like capitalism, they don’t like America, and they think we are the world’s problem. If when there is collateral damage that kills children in Lebanon ultimately George Bush is responsible.

    Editor’s note:

  12. Bob Says:

    Click my name for my response to Jessica.

  13. Emily Says:

    What has the Bush Administration done for the troops lately?

    Substandard equipment, scrounging together correct body armour, and then they come home and can’t get their health benefits.

    That’s real great support.

    Until I see proof to the contrary, I maintain that Hannity’s blind support for George Bush has nothing to do with “the troops” and everything to do with ratings.

  14. Part of the Plan Says:

    Jessica, the constitution is already hanging by a thread…all because of six years of “conservative” George W. Bush. Our only hope is that the next president is a “secular progressive” who will restore our constitutional liberties and end our national nightmare.

    BTW I’m one of the “troops” you claim to support (I’m still a soldier, just on the retired list). Trust me…we don’t need, we don’t want, and we won’t accept “support” from you or your wingnut ilk.

  15. Derek Staffanson Says:

    Wow. I’m not sure whether to be grateful and excited that I’ve already almost doubled my previous high on pageviews and am getting a spate of comments, or to be disappointed that the post which is receiving all this attention was just a quick personal observation, one I considered a throw away as opposed to the posts in which I researched and addressed issues. Oh well, I guess you take what publicity you can get…

    Thanks for the comments. I welcome alternative viewpoints, and have no problem with people like Jessica adding their views. I can’t deny that Jessica’s tone and personal criticism do nothing to persuade me that she, Hannity, or the conservative perspective in general are closer to that of the God of Love than the liberal side.

    I’m gratified and impressed that most (though not all) of the comments disputing Jessica have also maintained a more neutral or reasoned tone. I understand the temptation to get hot when you attacks of that nature and acerbity, and can’t claim to have always kept my cool, but we serve our cause poorly when we stoop to their level.

  16. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    “Sperling proposed a potential new project for the group: unionizing Wal-Mart workers. Soros, however, had no interest in union drives. He wanted to stay focussed on the main objective—ousting Bush. Yet he also warned the group against the idea of combatting right-wing propaganda with leftist demagoguery. “I do not have an interest in replacing one extremist movement with another,” he said.”

    Wow! Sounds like Soros is a whacko! *blank look*

    DS

  17. Jerry Says:

    Wow I bow down to you Liberals in Crazy world. Living in Arizona I know how much pressure the right can put on non neo-cons to back the Decider.Keep up the good work.

  18. George Says:

    Jessica said…

    “Okay, I won’t participate in a pissing contest…”

    How kind of you, but fairly disingenuous considering you’ve effectively urinated over everyone on this blog in such a way as to even make Ann “blessed-be-her-Adam’s-apple” Coulter excuse herself and leave the room embarrassed!

    You have obviously never has an original thought in your life, or one that wasn’t put in your head by folks like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly, et al. You’re entitled to your beliefs, but rest assured, your often pitiful ranting has probably not changed any minds here, thank God!

  19. Brother Dave Says:

    Jessica,

    So conservatives don’t support “protected sex”? You are a lunatic and clearly one of the reasons that I left Utah, left “the Church”, and found reasonable positive life away from Zion. Ever live outsideof Utah? If you do take the ruby slippers with you so you can click your heels home fast. Wow I forgot how much hate there was in Utah…. I am sure Jesus is proud of you.

  20. CV Rick Says:

    People like Jessica really make me wonder about the future of this country. We didn’t engage in this war in Iraq as a response to any action that was done to us. In fact, it was entered into under a brand new doctrine.

    We engaged in this war in Iraq on the authority of Preemption. That Preemptive Doctrine that Bush and Cheney so proudly declared before the invasion comes with quite a heavy price, however. See, preemption contains the requirement that another nation present a clear, present, and imminent danger to the United States. Notice that language – clear, present, and imminent – is the language used by administration authorities when talking to the public prior to this Preemptive “war.”

    Turns out Iraq posed no clear, no present, and no imminent danger to the United States of America. Therefore Preemption wasn’t justified even by the administration’s own rationalized standards.

    We aren’t fighting a war, Jessica and other right-wing theocrats, we’re continuing an illegal occupation which followed an illegal invasion. Therefore, the issue isn’t whether we have the “guts” to continue the fight, but whether we can stomach the continued crime we’ve condoned up till now.

  21. gwaltrip Says:

    C.V., you don’t know what you’re talking about. Bush invaded Iraq because of Saddam’s refusal to abide by several resolutions of the United Nations. He clearly stated that he wanted to end Saddam’s reign before the danger became imminent. In order to “win” the argument, you have simply substituted myth for facts.

    Where were you on 9/11? Clearly, there is a clear and present danger posed by militant Islam as proved by the numerous attacks on Western countries both before and after 9/11.

    We have been at war with Islam for many years – their decision, not ours. You are living in a dream world if you don’t see that. Your comments show a serious disconnect from reality.

  22. Randy Says:

    Jessica im sorry. But what does support of rocky have too do with being a good member of the lds church? (Except Rocky Goes against the Church some times on City Based Issues like The Skybridge over main Street) Even though i did say on my blog that Hannity had a Good point about if we want bush impeached why not Impeach hillary and John Kerry for supporting the war in the first place. I Think Hannity Was wrong Trashing Rocky like that. But what’s the Point I Don’t like Rocky and Hannity any way. Also i put a poll up asking My fellow Democrat’s if they would want Kerry and Clinton Impeached.

  23. Jenni Says:

    The comments are really booming on this one, LM.

    I admit it’s been a while since I was a Mormon — I lapsed at 19 and had my name removed at 29, mostly due to the church’s views on women and GLBT folks — but I still remember some of the stuff I learned there. Free choice comes to mind when I read Jessica’s comments.

    Remember that lesson back in primary? The one that talks about the “war” in the pre-existence, the one that started because Lucifer wanted to control people and make them do God’s will on earth and Jesus wanted to give them free will — let them choose.

  24. Emily Says:

    Many believed that we needed to go to Iraq to get rid of Saddam Hussein. OK, that’s done, he’s captured and dead.

    Why are we still there?

    What troubles me is that we’re there, we are spending TOO much money, and we have created a *huge* mess. A *very* good friend of mine returned from Iraq last year and although he doesn’t support a “time certain” measure to get out, he also doesn’t believe a “Surge’ is the answer, either. He says the surge thing is just “too little, too late” —

    So, what do we do? Do we just “get out” or do we work on a plan to stabalize and then leave? I want to know, if our President insists on “winning”, then what is his plan to do that? All I hear is “we need to win.” — what does that mean? Is his plan to stay there indefinitely? What is *HIS* plan? What will a “successful” ending look like?

    Everyone remembers 9/11. The Republican rhetoric that somehow we have forgotten what happened is only meant to try to paint those of us against this war as unpatriotic. Everyone here will tell you that 9/11 was an awful, sad day for America. And most of us supported our going to Afghanistan to oust and remove Osama Bin Laden. Well, where is he? If he was the biggest threat to America, why don’t we have him yet? Why are we insisting on staying in Iraq in the middle of their civil war, when apparently Bin Laden is roaming around free? Knowing that he *could* rear his ugly head again because apparently we don’t know where he is or what he is up to makes me feel less safe than ever.

    The whole thing is an ugly mess and we’re spending *way* too much money with not a whole lot to show for it. Further, this president has called for huge tax cuts in a time of war – something that is unprecedented in our American history. Our children and grandchildren are going to be paying for this for generations. What is American about that? The America that I know and love is about providing a *better* future for our descendents, not leaving them huge stacks of debt and an unstable America.

    Finally, many of the comments here are directed at why LDS people just can’t be liberals because if you support a liberal position, and question the president of the USA, it is the same thing as apostasy.

    I have said and will continue to say – it is NOT un-American, un-Patriotic, or anti-God to question the actions of the president of the United States. We can certainly disagree on what we think the best Iraq policy is, but in doing so, please don’t tell me that I am not a good Christian or member of my faith. I do not accuse LDS republicans of such things only because I disagree with their politics.

  25. george fisher Says:

    The right wing of the R party has duped and mislead so many Mormons. That party and wing has betrayed and deceived so many. It is impossible to be a ‘good Mormon’ and a Republican. They stand for war, the plan of way of the adversary. They have forgotten we are all beggars and have come short denying basic humand rights and dignity to los hijos de Lehi, the children of Lehi. More than 600,000 Iraqis have died because of Bush’s invasion and continued occupation of Iraq. It is time to repent and seek forgiveness. Turn your sword and your animus into a plowshare Jessica and change your perspectives if not your party.

  26. Emily Says:

    Insincere to troops.

    This pisses me off.

    First of all, no one has ever blamed the troops for the war. They are just doing the job that was asked of them.

    Bringing them home is not insincere. Insisting that we keep our promises to them (health care, etc.) is not insincere. I don’t want to hear of ONE MORE DEAD American soldier. I want families reunited, I want children to know their fathers, and when they get home, I want the government to help them with their injuries and mental health.

    Patriotism to our troops is MORE than a yellow sticker.

    We owe them and their families everything – they have sacrificed more for this stupid war than they should have *ever* been asked to do. And yet, when they come home, we throw them a parade, wave a flag, and then forget about them.

  27. CV Rick Says:

    gwaltrip,

    There is a disconnect here, there surely is. You do know the definition of Secular, right? That’s the kind of government that was in Iraq . . . not great, horribly brutal, but secular . . . not militant Islamic, and not responsible for 9/11.

    Not only am I right about everything I wrote, but I’ve been over in that desert wearing a uniform and being shot at. What about you?

  28. Tooele Democrat Says:

    Jessica. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Take it to heart.

    and then read this link . . .

    http://www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=6203d93c8688f010VgnVCM100000176f620aRCRD&vgnextchannel=726511154963d010VgnVCM1000004e94610aRCRD&vgnextfmt=tab1

  29. Jessica Says:

    “We aren’t fighting a war, Jessica and other right-wing theocrats, we’re continuing an illegal occupation which followed an illegal invasion. Therefore, the issue isn’t whether we have the “guts” to continue the fight, but whether we can stomach the continued crime we’ve condoned up till now.”
    -If that isn’t liber far left talking points from MoveOn.org, I don’t know what is….sick

    “There is a disconnect here, there surely is. You do know the definition of Secular, right? That’s the kind of government that was in Iraq . . . not great, horribly brutal, but secular . . . not militant Islamic, and not responsible for 9/11.

    Not only am I right about everything I wrote, but I’ve been over in that desert wearing a uniform and being shot at. What about you?””

    My finance was in Irag for 18months! Iraq is infiltrated with militant Islamics, undercover and feeding weapons to the enemy. This IS NOT ABOUT SADDAM ANYMORE, although you CAN”T ignore the mass murder upon the Kurds and other by his regime.

    “People like Jessica really make me wonder about the future of this country. We didn’t engage in this war in Iraq as a response to any action that was done to us. In fact, it was entered into under a brand new doctrine.”

    That’s just unfair. How do I pose a threat? As I said in earlier posts, it the Anti-Bush, anti-American, secular progressives lead by people like George Soros, who is an American hater…to transform the US into a socialts utopia. THAT CAN NOT BE DENIED. He and his movement are more effective than me, so come on, you are giving me way too much credit.

    “So conservatives don’t support “protected sex”? You are a lunatic and clearly one of the reasons that I left Utah, left “the Church”, and found reasonable positive life away from Zion. Ever live outsideof Utah? If you do take the ruby slippers with you so you can click your heels home fast. Wow I forgot how much hate there was in Utah…. I am sure Jesus is proud of you.”

    I live in the state of Maine, been a New Englander my whole life…not from Utah, never been first of all! You are clearly a hater, you even used the word. That’s all I have to say!

    Jerry and GWaltrip…thanks, unfortunately these people subscribe to HATE. I don’t hate. That’s the #1 differece between mw and them who call me names, yet blast Hannity, O’Reilly and Limbaugh. I just call a spade a spade. I trully believe that there will be revolution against the evilness that George Soros and the Shadow Party are implementing.
    Prophets of ancient and modern times have warned about apostacy…that’s all I see hear. It’s sad.

    Brother Dave: The Church teaches abstinence, if you don’t know that then I don’t know where you have been. The law of chastity. If we were perfect, then protected sex would be…what and why? The church teaches ABSTINENCE….??!!!!!!!!!

    I’m done. Emotionally exhausted from this. I had a bishops blessing the other night. The Lord knows the intentions in my heart. It’s not about being a “good mormon” as it is being a good person of spirit. If you folks are trully humble people and have a good reltionship with Heavenly Father. That’s the most important.

  30. Jessica Says:

    The left is bigger, stronger, and more organized today than ever in its history and it’s because it’s been funded by the American taxpayer through these kind of schemes.

    George Soros has put together what is really epic making on his part – he’s put together an organization – a shadow party that consists of anti-American billionaires, mob-run unions and government unions, 60s radicals who want a revolution in this country, and the heart of the Democratic party apparatus – Podesta, Ickes, and company.

    That’s what’s frightening. The Democratic party is now the party of [30s radical] Henry Wallace. It is a radical party. And as Rudy Giuliani said the other night, it’s a left-wing party.

    They don’t like capitalism, they don’t like America, and they think we are the world’s problem. If when there is collateral damage that kills children in Lebanon ultimately George Bush is responsible.

    Dispute this!

  31. Jessica Says:

    Or this!
    Soros says the main principle threat to the world is not terrorism but American supremacy. He does not identify with the United States, nor do any of these open-borders-type. He thinks of himself as a world citizen and we are the problem. I think he’s very dangerous.

    He has overthrown many governments – he’s gotten away with a lot. He broke the Bank of England, for example. He’s played high stakes with governments and he’s prepared to do what it takes to bring down the regime we have in America. He’s somebody to be taken very seriously

  32. Jessica Says:

    That is where all of your MoveOn.org rhetoric comes from? Are you okay with that?

  33. Jessica Says:

    Compare Hannity with Soros……is there even one? NO

  34. Jessica Says:

    Is that conducive to LDS values….mmmm think not!

  35. Jessica Says:

    The meeting’s organizer was Peter B. Lewis, the seventy-year-old reclusive chairman of the Progressive Corporation, an insurance company based in Cleveland, Ohio. He has spent much of 2004 discreetly directing millions of dollars to liberal groups allied with the Democratic Party, such as America Coming Together and MoveOn.org, while cruising the Mediterranean Sea on his two-hundred-and-fifty-foot yacht, Lone Ranger. The yacht has communications equipment that allows Lewis to monitor political developments in America while sunbathing off the coast of Italy. Lewis, a major backer of efforts to decriminalize marijuana, has helped underwrite campaigns to hold referenda on decriminalization in Arizona and California. (In 2000, he was arrested in New Zealand for possessing marijuana.) According to Lewis’s friends, he concluded that it would be best to remain a shadow figure in the 2004 campaign; he has declined all requests for interviews.

    IS THAT CONDUCIVE TO LDS VALUES? That’s precisley the mastermind behind all of your liberal propoganda. I’ll take Hannity, O’Reilly and Limbaugh anyday. At least they have morals, and don’t support the Man Boy Love Association, or Open Society. Seriously people.

  36. Jessica Says:

    The meeting’s organizer was Peter B. Lewis, the seventy-year-old reclusive chairman of the Progressive Corporation, an insurance company based in Cleveland, Ohio. He has spent much of 2004 discreetly directing millions of dollars to liberal groups allied with the Democratic Party, such as America Coming Together and MoveOn.org, while cruising the Mediterranean Sea on his two-hundred-and-fifty-foot yacht, Lone Ranger. The yacht has communications equipment that allows Lewis to monitor political developments in America while sunbathing off the coast of Italy. Lewis, a major backer of efforts to decriminalize marijuana, has helped underwrite campaigns to hold referenda on decriminalization in Arizona and California. (In 2000, he was arrested in New Zealand for possessing marijuana.) According to Lewis’s friends, he concluded that it would be best to remain a shadow figure in the 2004 campaign; he has declined all requests for interviews.

    IS THAT CONDUCIVE TO LDS VALUES? That’s precisly the mastermind behind all of your liberal propoganda. I’ll take Hannity, O’Reilly and Limbaugh anyday. At least they have morals, and don’t support the Man Boy Love Association, or Open Society. Seriously people.

  37. CV Rick Says:

    Wow. A true believer.

    Scary.

  38. Part of the Plan Says:

    Jessica,

    You are truly certifiable.

  39. Lew Newmark, Middletown,NY Says:

    Hello all. I have read alot of what has been posted here about this debate. First, I am not a mormon. Second, I am not a liberal, nor am I a leftist. Not surprisizing that ANY debate that Hannity is involved in could generate this type of debate. First, I don’t think that bush should be impeached. At this point, impeaching the President does not kill the machine already in action in Iraq. And we all have to admit that when it came to the vote for this war to go forward, democrats were just as culpable as were the republicans.And while the dems might be sincere in their wanting to get the troops home, I do not see that happening till there is a dem in the White House.

    Second, I have commented on this war from both sides of the table, and I have listened to Shawn Hannity and his comments about this war. In my opinion, he is sincere in his beliefs about this war. His passion on the topic speaks volumns as to his commitment. While I do not agree as to why we are there today in Iraq, I do agree with his comments about having to support the troops in their current endevours. Are they there fighting for our freedom of speech, as is sometime preached on conservative talk radio today? Of course not. Have we ” Probably Created ” more terrorists due to our occupation in Iraq, in my opinion…yes we have.

    As far as religion goes, there is no place for religion in this debate, nor should it have been brought up in the first place.

    As far as George Soros goes, I happen to think that Jessica is correct and hit the nail on the head with this one. And lets be honest, all you democrats out there…you have to admit that the face of the democratic party has changed and is just a shadow of what it was many years ago when we were children.

    And I will remind Jessica, that Bill Clinton was impeached, did not leave office, and served out his term as the president.

    As far as Shawn and the rest of conservative talk radio goes, the only one I have any use for is Shawn. I respect his opinions, his convictions, and the things that he has sponsered for and in the name of the American Soldier. The Freedom Concerts that he has spearheaded for the troops and their families are just for those soldiers and shows the passion and commitment that Hannity has for the troops. I respect this commitment. I was a soldier in the us Army back back in 1976 thru 1979, and while I was not in any war zone or in a conflict at the time, I appreciate what it means to serve the country.

  40. Rick Says:

    Jessica,

    While I’m not LDS, I wonder . . .

    When someone expresses their opinion openly and honestly about a “debate,” a practice which is encouraged by the LDS church. (I clicked on that earlier link)

    And then has his faith questioned by someone who’s never met him. I honestly think that if you spoke with your bishop about it, you would find that that is not conducive to LDS values.

    We’re all entitled to our opinions. I’m a democrat because I believe that our country is only as strong as our weakest link. I believe in a woman’s right to choose. I think that if my friends Kirt and Jerry want to get married, it isn’t going to do a single thing to my marriage. I think that God loves ALL people, not just Americans.

    My republican friends? True republicans? They’re ashamed and embarrassed over what’s happened over the past 7 years. Smaller government and financial responsibility thrown out the window in favor of more govt bureaucracy and a record deficit. (my republican friends try to convince me that Bush is a liberal because of what he’s done)

    Soros? He can be your boogey man. (although I need to start attending those “Liberal’s taking over the world” meetings. why haven’t I gotten an invite to those?)

    The fact is Bush is the reason the USA is in decline. This war is an embarrassment. What did Osama bin Laden want more than anything? a holy war. Bush gave it to him on a silver platter.

    Finally, you’ll really take Hannity, O’Reilly and Limbaugh? Please? Somewhere far away? just make sure to have plenty of falaffels and oxycontin! 🙂

  41. Emily Says:

    Wow, posting this on the UtahAmicus seems to have really stirred things up out there in blog land – don’t know whether to apologize to Derek or to just keep posting!

    I will say this… Jessica, I am sorry if all of our comments have taken you to the point of needing a priesthood blessing. Our intent is not to upset anybody to that point. I think most of us are just astounded that no matter what we say, you are refusing to address *our* arguments and keep coming back with all of this rhetoric, quoting people who we aren’t even talking about and assuming that because the majority of us are LDS Democrats or Liberals that somehow we are not following God’s plan because we don’t subscribe to your brand of politics, or because we think Sean Hannity is up in the night.

    Really, it’s not all that important in the big scheme of things. The last time I heard, the plan of salvation was about coming to the earth to learn valuable things about returning to God. Part of that requires “Loving one Another” and being good to our brothers and sisters throughout the whole world, not just those who we agree with politically. When you say such hateful things, not only about LDS Democrats but also about members of the world family, it makes me a little bit sad.

    You might not agree with George Soros or anybody else you’ve quoted here… but this bitterness that you have for anyone with a difference of opinion is really troublesome to me.

    All I can say is that I hope you have a restful Sunday and that you don’t let this trouble you too much… it’s just politics, afterall — there really ARE things that are much more important.

  42. Hello Dashing Says:

    Wow. Jessica. I only read your first response here, and I’m not interested in reading the rest. Your rhetoric is no different than the beliefs that motivated the terrorists into the towers.

    This fundamental belief that you are the only one that is right is what causes the destruction of the world. Remember, Satan wanted to force everybody back to God’s presence — he wanted to be right and wanted everyone to think like him.

    You need to get on your knees and immediately pray for forgiveness. Not only do you have a hatred for God’s children, but you have an addition to political pornography, which is just as destructive as the physical kind.

  43. Derek Staffanson Says:

    Thanks again for all the comments. No need to apologize, Emily, its kind of fun to get a lot of views and comments!

    Rick, thanks for sharing a very concise explanation of liberalism. It very much mirrors my own reason for choosing this path.

  44. Jessica Says:

    NO NO NO…I didn’t mean to imply that I had a bishops blessing because of poitics, it was a seperate issue in my life FAR REMOVE from this. I understand the role of the church in regards to politics, I have read the siclaimer on LDS org.

    I have to say, the other night on the Mormons, PBS documentary, an Apostle said something to the fact that, it was wrong to critize the Prophet even if it is right…though this sounds unfair and can be controversy in it’s self, I understand the meaning behind it. I respect the Prophet, believe him 100%. Doubts and questions directed towards the Prophet begin to leave openings in which the advesary could creep in a create more doubt.
    No way is Bush comparable to the Prophet, but there is something to be said about the theme of that statement, and it’s called respect for people in office.

    Also,
    Landnewmark said, :”As far as religion goes, there is no place for religion in this debate, nor should it have been brought up in the first place.

    As far as George Soros goes, I happen to think that Jessica is correct and hit the nail on the head with this one. And lets be honest, all you democrats out there…you have to admit that the face of the democratic party has changed and is just a shadow of what it was many years ago when we were children.”

    1st, the name of this blog is “Mormon Liberal”. Ibelieve that this makes no sense, nothinh they can say or do will convince me otherwise. So I’m sorry about the relious speak. I agree with you, politics are complex enough, add religion…forget it!

    2nd, Thank you, thank you, thank you. Change has infiltrated the Rep. as well. lokkat Rudy…doesn’t fit the conservative bill, not like 10-20 years ago. So transformation is clear accross both sides of the isle.
    The George Soros stuff is true. When it is disclosed to the moderate, even far left bandwagon goers, it’s not easy to ingest. The man is just pure evil, and he has just about bought out the Dem. Party….awful!

  45. wesley Says:

    This has been truly and interesting display of emotion. Reading all the posts just reconfirmed my feelings and contentment and commitment to being a concerned secular progressive patriot citizen activist, slightly left of center at 7:00 PM with both feet placed firmly in reality. Thanks and have a great day. wesley

  46. wesley Says:

    please Jessica go have some green jello and chill ,,,enough, lol wesley

  47. Jessica Says:

    wesley u are the kool-aid drinker…..lol, jess

  48. full Vid's of the Hannity, Anderson Smackdown at One Utah. Also my comment to Jessica's quote at A Liberal Mormon. « the Utah Conservitive Democrat Blog Says:

    […] at A liberal Mormon There is a Quote by a reader named jessica. Stating. […]

  49. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    Wow.. The number of posts being generated by this thread, here and elsewhere, is astonishing.

    Jessica: I would prefer there were more Jessica’s here to fight the faux-conservative fight. Your recent posts are riddled with errors, distortions and bizarre extrapolations, but I really can’t find it in myself to point them out.

    Jess, nobody has all the answers. As human beings, we’re all fallible. I’m well aware I’m not right about everything, and I have my own past which undoubtedly distorts my perspective in ways I don’t fully understand.

    I could probably be labeled a secular progressive, and I have expressed plenty of criticism of the President, Republicans, and, of course, Sean Hannity and other Pundits. I ascribe no divinity or infallibility to any of them, and find it frightening that anyone does.

    That being said, I am very much in support of the troops, and respect their service, even if I question their commander in chief. I have conflicted feelings about our presence there and what the next move should be.

    I tend to focus my criticism domestically, such as promoting awareness of our failure to adequately tend to veterans. I also have very serious concerns over the methods used to sell us on the invasion. I have even greater concerns over this administrations apparent belief their power is plenary, and that they are above meaningful oversight, supersede Constitutional restrictions and are immune to US law.

    I have no desire to see a socialist state, nor do I wish to see unbridled capitalism where ultra-wealthy corporations, individuals and family dynasties sculpt laws to protect their riches through corrupt laws and fiscal bullying. I think that money interests, (money-lenders, money-changers? Ring a bell?) are the root of much evil in the world.

    I would like to see abortions eliminated, but don’t think this can be done through outlawing them. I subscribe to the notion that abortion should be “Legal, Safe, and Rare.” I think Republicans love abortion, and never want to see it truly resolved, because it would deflate the righteous indignation of their base which ensures their arrival at the voting booths.

    I am straight but think it unjust to deny rights to homosexuals because a small portion of Christian/Islam canon condemns it, and find it very difficult to take such complaints seriously when said canon is so selectively focused on while other parts are ignored entirely. Indeed, I hear much made of homosexuality being an abomination, but very few people who contend they should be put to death, as the Bible dictates. Why aren’t Christians fighting for a Constitutional amendment which would allow Homosexuals to be put to death for having gay sex?

    And finally, the ultimate in Republican nuttiness: the ability to summarily dismiss any criticism, failure or apparent contradiction in ideology, through vague citation of the “liberal media.” George Soros is somehow an all powerful bogeyman in complete control of the “liberal media,” (even though, as you quoted above, made it quite clear that he didn’t want to replace conservative extremism with liberal extremism) without flinching at Rupert Murdoch’s demonstrable partisan media empire.

    I don’t know, Jessica. But obviously this has been a source of stress for you, and I don’t want to push it further. It’s not like it will make you question anything. If anything, it will cement your partisanship even more. I wish you peace, happiness and freedom.

    Best,
    DS

  50. Jessica Says:

    Thanks DS, we can agree to disagree. I believe in boogy man Soros, and I resent the abortion comment. I have made alot of spelling ang grammical errors, sorry. I type too fast and without spell check, it’s even harder to catch. I am a happy mother of two, wonderful fiance and I am proud to stay by Sean Hannity, and I enjoy a good laugh everynight with O’Reilly. Just as my boogie man is Soros, yours is Hannity, O’Reilly, and the rest of them. People hate them because they especially Bill, exposes people for who they are. Everyone that has been a target of him deserves the exposer. It’s all a crock….Bill name calling every 9 sec, or something, and the study group that released that info counted conservative, liberal, house speaker, rediculous things as “name calling” so who’s right? This has become a rediculous pissing contest. I stand by people that I identify with. I cannot identify with Soros, or Harry Reid or Pelosi with her “San Fransisco values” I have worked with gays, been friends with gays…I don’t hate them. I don’t believe that a gay marriage is ordained of God, but nonetheless, who am I to push pain, discomfort or unjust restrictions on them. I’m not as crazy as you may think. I’m only 29 and when I was in high school, this progressive movement blew through, english classes become “tolerence”, “exceptence” and alternative lifestyles class. Not ONCE did I read classic literature. I was at a serious disadvantage when I went to high school. That’s a whole other discussion, but again, I CANNOT relate to ANYTHING in the progressive movement.

  51. Jessica Says:

    =sorry, went to college

  52. Jessica Says:

    Bill O’Reilly said, “Did you know that I, your humble correspondent, call somebody a name every 6.8 seconds during my T-Points presentation each evening? Did you know that?! That’s awful. I should be ashamed. I denigrate somebody nine times every minute. How could I?”

    That astounding analysis, if you want to call it that, comes from three Indiana University researchers. I’m sure they’re excellent folks.

    But somehow, some way their research wound up in the hands of Media Matters, the smear internet site partly funded by enterprises connected to George Soros.

    And guess what? Media Matters issued a press release about the terrible “Talking Points Memos.” What the press release did not say however is that the Indiana researchers consider pretty much every description to be name calling. Quoting from the study, “The terms ‘conservative,’ ‘liberal,’ ‘left,’ ‘right,’ ‘progressive,’ ‘traditional’ or ‘centrist’ were treated as name calling if they were associated with a problem or social ill.” Ah ha!

    Now here’s the back story: Last week we showed you this chart detailing where far left billionaire George Soros contributes money and how his propaganda machine works its way through the internet and into the mainstream media.

    Soros and his gang were furious with that exposition. So we knew blow back was coming. Thus the Indiana Media Matters nonsense. By the way, did you know that Soros’s Open Society Institute donated $5 million to Indiana University?

    I’m also sure that was just a coincidence. Also sure that Soros is very disappointed he didn’t get more bang for the buck this time around.

    Most of the committed left press didn’t mention the nutty Indiana paper, only those truly bought and paid for elements at NBC News and Rosie O’Donnell spit it out there:

    ROSIE O’DONNELL: Go ahead Behar, what do you got?

    JOY BEHAR: I said do you want to have a fight with O’Reilly because he calls people names every 6.8 seconds apparently. Bill O’Reilly on his show.

    O’DONNELL: Yeah, there was an article in the paper, he insults someone or calls someone a name every 6.8 seconds.

    BEHAR: Wow!

    Bill concludes, “The problem is Rosie, that no newspaper we could find printed that propaganda. You and Behar got it from Media Matters, your daily source of deception.

    So once again it’s beyond a reasonable doubt that the radical left Soros has built a very smooth propaganda machine that has direct access to both the ABC and NBC television networks. Think about that. That is power.

    Finally, let’s add up the name calling tonight: Let’s see there was “humble correspondent,” “smear sites,” “radical left,” “committed left,” “nutty,” “deception,” “Behar” and “Rosie.” Wait –the last two were real names, so that’s only six examples of name calling in three minutes.– Far below my average. I must be slipping.”

    Interesting to hear the otherside, isn’t it…..

  53. Emily Says:

    Jessica,

    I am an LDS Democrat, maybe even an LDS Liberal. I was born in Utah but raised in the San Francisco area. I *resent* your saying that somehow San Francisco people have worse values than you.

    I would love to continue this conversation with you, but I can’t stand the rhetoric.

    I challenge you to say something without bringing up George Soros or Nancy Pelosi, because neither one of them have anything to do with being an LDS Democrat.

  54. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    Jessica,

    I don’t think you’re crazy, but I do think you’ve bound a political party to religious faith to such an extent that you cannot accept anything, no matter how self-evident, which conflicts with your ideology.

    I knew you would resent the abortion comment, but it’s true. They don’t want the problem solved. If they really cared, they would pursue solutions to ameliorate the problem instead of preaching about it every election cycle and stacking the courts with evangelical party loyalists. They are in it for the fight, not the principle.

    They call themselves culture warriors, proclaim their righteousness at every opportunity, and wait for the cameras to roll so they can show how faithful and humble they are. I guess that’s what I find most vulgar about modern Republicanism.

    You can’t relate to anything in the progressive movement because you don’t understand it. You define it as the Republican punditry wants you to, which ranges from inaccurate to just plain bizarre. The way you described the progressive movement, I couldn’t relate to it either.

    I don’t think O’Reilly or Hannity are bogymen. I think O’Reilly at least tries to do the right thing, but is under a lot of stress from, you know, reality. Consequently he seems to be developing some weird form of paranoia and and almost messianic self-importance. Hannity I have less respect for. I’ve never seen such a smug, whining, finger-pointing partisan. He trades on the patriotism, fear and faith of the American people. His career depends upon culturing hate between the divide he works so tirelessly to widen and intensify.

    DS

  55. Jessica Says:

    Emily…precisely my point! You have no understanding of the relationship Soros has with the democratic party, you CAN”T talk about dems without now associating the party to Soros and the Open Society Institute and MoveOn.org. ALL funded by him!

    Did you read my lengthy entries above? It’s undeniable.

    Second, San Fransico has very low values compared to the rest of the country. Please, do some research, their policies are horrendous including legalization of marijuana, which is a forfront issue to Soros.

    DS, if I am wrong about secular progressive movement, can you be more specific? I gave you the story of my high school experience…please give me some examples that contradict my interpretation of SP’s…

    Thank You

  56. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    Well, here’s media matters response:

    —————–

    On the May 3 edition of Fox News’ The O’Reilly Factor, host Bill O’Reilly again purported to find a nefarious link between Media Matters for America and philanthropist George Soros. Responding to an Indiana University study that found that “O’Reilly called a person or a group a derogatory name once every 6.8 seconds, on average, or nearly nine times every minute during the [‘Talking Points Memo’] editorials that open his program each night,” O’Reilly stated: “But somehow, some way, their research wound up in the hands of Media Matters, the smear Internet site partly funded by enterprises connected to George Soros. And guess what? Media Matters issued a press release about the terrible ‘Talking Points Memos.’ ” The “somehow, some way” that Media Matters found out about the research was through an IU press release promoting the study and its results.

    On the May 3 show, O’Reilly filled viewers in on what he called “the back story” on the Indiana University study: “Last week we showed you this chart detailing where far-left billionaire George Soros contributes money and how his propaganda machine works its way through the Internet and into the mainstream media. Soros and his gang were furious with that exposition. So we knew blowback was coming. Thus, the Indiana/Media Matters nonsense.”

    O’Reilly’s self-proclaimed “exposition” was the utterly false claim that Media Matters received money from Soros. After Media Matters noted that Soros had never given the organization money, O’Reilly claimed that Soros funneled money to Media Matters through the Tides Foundation. As Media Matters documented, on the April 26 edition of The O’Reilly Factor, O’Reilly accused Media Matters of lying about its funding and noted that Tides donated over $1 million to Media Matters in 2005, “[a]nd just by coincidence Soros’ Open Society Institute [OSI] donated more than a million dollars to Tides in 2005.” He then added: “Figure it out.” But O’Reilly’s conclusion that Soros donated $1 million to Media Matters through the Tides Foundation is false. OSI’s donations to Tides were earmarked for several specific programs, and Media Matters was not included on this list. O’Reilly’s reference on May 3 to Media Matters as “the smear Internet site partly funded by enterprises connected to George Soros” represents a complete — though unacknowledged — abandonment of his previous claim that Media Matters has received money from Soros. While O’Reilly made that claim, however, on-screen text described Media Matters as “party [sic] funded by George Soros.”

    O’Reilly purported to complete the Soros-Indiana-Media Matters connection with the following: “By the way, did you know that Soros’ Open Society Institute [OSI] donated $5 million to Indiana University? I’m sure that was just a coincidence,” suggesting that the study was the result of the donation. O’Reilly is presumably referring to a $5 million donation by the OSI to the school in 2005; in fact, that donation was directed to establish an endowment for the American University of Central Asia in Kyrgyzstan, with the U.S. Agency for International Development providing another $10 million. OSI has partnered with IU in other ventures, such as higher education curriculum development in Azerbaijan, preparing Burmese refugees for college, and a degree program for teaching second languages in Kazakhstan.

    Further, according to the IU press release on the O’Reilly study, “The researchers received no grant funding for this study.”

    So the link that O’Reilly was purporting to expose amounts to the following: Soros gave Indiana University $5 million for a project in Kyrgyzstan; researchers in IU’s journalism and communications departments produced a study on O’Reilly that has no connection to Kyrgyzstan and received no grant money; and Media Matters learned of the study through the means by which presumably everyone else did — a press release.

    ——

    MM’s response aside, I found the study and several newspaper articles in about 30 seconds of googling. Apparently O’Reilly’s crew didn’t try very hard.

    DS

  57. Jessica Says:

    DS, please give me some examples of cultural warriors proclaiming richeousness and looking for cameras. I see alot of left wingers making speaches and spectacles all over the place. Penn, Fonda, O’Donnell who won’t let poor little Hassleback one word in edge wise. Sheehan, Rocky and others are camera seekers.

  58. Charlotte Says:

    The one thing I want to address is that Jessica keeps repeating that Hannity et al are hated by us heathen liberals because they tell the truth and call people what they are. Um? No. Under the “I don’t hate anyone” category I really don’t hate him. I think he’s an ass 😉

    And thanks for telling me *why* I feel how I do, but you’re wrong. I think he is an ass because he uses name calling, talking over liberal/democratic/open-minded GUESTS, and plain old flash-bang conservatism to get his “points” across. Or as Rocky so eloquently stated, “You just like to hear yourself talk, don’t you.”

    Hannity doesn’t make any profound arguments, none of the conservative talk show hosts do. And what I see over and over in the conservatist talk show ilk is grouping. You put all the “good” christians in a group and all the “heathens” in another group. And then you spout your Christian values and tell all of your sheep/lemming listeners that to be a true Christian you must be in the good group, otherwise, you go to hell. And they sure do a great job with you.

    It’s as if they are the left over unpopular kids from grade school. They have to prove that they are patriotic, good christians, and supporting the troops by saying that anyone who doesn’t beleive exactly as they do are the opposite. They think that by calling anyone names that we will suddenly fall in line and beleive as they do.

    Can’t you see that we can all be patriotic, good people, and supportive of the people fighting in Iraq … AND STILL WANT TO GO ABOUT IT DIFFERENTLY? We are all human beings and we all have free will. It is irrational and almost as scary as your spelling to think that everyone would think the exact same way.

    NOTHING is black and white, it is all a grey area. Even teachings in the LDS church have gone from absolutely No to Yes (Black people as Bishops for instance).

    And maybe before going on another tirade without answering anyone’s questions, ask yourself this Jessica: Why would God have made us all so different, if he wanted us to be the same?

  59. Emily Says:

    Wait a second. You are claiming that Soros has “bought and paid for” the Democratic party, mostly using the story about Soros funding Media Matters — but Media Matters claims that Soros has never given them a cent. And who cares if he did? Do I need to go out there and find all of the dirty money that is given to Republicans by corrupt people?

    Hmmm, wait. Maybe I’ll do just that:

    From the Daily Kos:

    It’s not like Right-Wing crackpots like Sam Fox withtruck loads of cash to burn on smearing Democrats like John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi would ever be rewarded with something like – being nominated as Ambassador to Belgium, Right?It’s not like a nutbag religious zealot like the Rev. Sun Myung Moon could ever buy a major american newspaper in the Nation’s capital and use it’s online edition to promote right-wing lies and propaganda about Democratic Candidates for President, eh?And it’s not like multi-billionarie Rupert Murdock would ever buy an entire Cable News Network, and install Karl Rove’s former deputy Roger Ailes to operate and manage it by sending out daily marching orders on how the news will be spun that day, would they? Oh, It’s not like millionaire Richard Mellon-Scaife didn’t fund a project designed specifically to destroy Bill Clinton through his magazine The American Spectator (Which ironically used to employ one David Brock!) did he? Oh yeah, they all did!The only problem with the Fox/Moon/Murdock/Scaife v Soros analogy is the teeny, tiny, infitesimal little fact that SOROS DOESN’T FUND MEDIA MATTERS either directly or through intermediate organizations. Even the Politico has had to admit it in a printed retraction to a Tom Delay Op-ed.

    As for your San francisco comment — I’m just going to ignore it. I grew up there and was raised with some of the most wonderful and most beautiful people in my life. Not to mention some of the most conservative people I have ever known. But even *these* people find the current state of affairs in America troubling. I go there for vacation all the time to visit family and friends – many of them are LDS. They are not devoid of values as you claim. They are just normal people, living normal lives – trying to provide for their families and get through the day to day stuff.

  60. Jessica Says:

    We are not meant to be all the same Charlotte. There is still RIGHT and WRONG. There still is black and white in the church, aside from few…few…few…changes through revelation….the LDS Church has less grey area than most Christians. That’s a reason why some fall away is because of the high standards it has. So, as a liberal Charlotte…is it discrimination if you can’t enter the Temple? Wow…..better call the ACLU….gosh forbid that there are standards…..thanks for all of your comments about me. You should be so kind.

  61. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    Did you read my lengthy entries above? It’s undeniable.

    Oh, it’s deniable Jess. Sorry.

    Second, San Fransico has very low values compared to the rest of the country. Please, do some research, their policies are horrendous including legalization of marijuana, which is a forfront issue to Soros.

    Very low values compared to the rest of the country? According to who, you? And what are their “horrendous” policies regarding the legalization of marijuana? Do you know anything about marijuana? How how do you figure it’s a “forefront” issue to George Soros? Do you know some of the other “nefarious” things Soros has done around the world?

    DS, if I am wrong about secular progressive movement, can you be more specific? I gave you the story of my high school experience…please give me some examples that contradict my interpretation of SP’s…

    Jess, you anecdotal experience does not define a movement.

    When I was in high school, I was insulted and ostracized by LDS kids when I fell away from the church. I was told I was going to hell more than once. I just barely turned 32 and I there were no “alternative lifestyle” classes which replaced English classes. In fact, while I was in Junior High, part of my “GT” English curriculum were certain stories from the Bible. In high school, the teacher was almost fired for mentioning abortion. Despite these things, I do not define Conservative Christians by my negative experiences in high school.

    So I’m not sure exactly how else I can be “more specific” about your conception of the “secular progressive” movement via your anecdotal high school experience.

    I can tell you that I support the NRA and consider them a comparable organization to the ACLU. I oppose illegal immigration, but believe we should make immigration easier and improve programs to help legal immigrants acclimate. I believe English should be the national language. I would love for there to be no abortions, but believe you cann…..

    I could go on and on. But I have to wonder if you really do care. It’s much more comfortable to believe you’ve got a bead on it. If you have specifics, give me specifics, but please, no more O’Reilly/Hannity rhetoric.

    DS

  62. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    the LDS Church has less grey area than most Christians. That’s a reason why some fall away is because of the high standards it has.

    That’s a comfortable thought. The truth is there are many reasons why people leave the LDS Church. I had a hard time with the authority of the church. For instance, when I was young and my parents were struggling in the marriage, I questioned the divine authority of the Bishop when he blamed my Mother for their problems because she “never should have gone back to college.”

    Some people, like myself, had a hard time dealing with literal interpretations of Biblical ridiculousness, like Noah’s Ark and the great flood, God’s apparent moodiness and selective justice, etc..

    And strangely, a lot of people leave the Church because.. they think its’ false, and not really a church of Christ. They believe that, at best, Mormons are misled, at worst, are agents of the adversary – the great church of Satan. In fact, the Mormons are one of the few groups who consider Mormons Christian at all.

    DS

  63. Jessica Says:

    Charlotte:”Can’t you see that we can all be patriotic, good people, and supportive of the people fighting in Iraq … AND STILL WANT TO GO ABOUT IT DIFFERENTLY? We are all human beings and we all have free will. It is irrational and almost as scary as your spelling to think that everyone would think the exact same way.”

    What if I said….can’t you see that we can all be worthy, we may not all have the same values, but we STILL SHOULD ENTER THE TEMPLE, WE ALL CAN’T BE THE SAME!

    C’mon…….like Rosie saying….they are not terroists, they are moms and dads like us….

    ok, and they strap bombs to their kids, but be cause they are parents does that give them a pass?

    unbelievable

  64. Jessica Says:

    That’s nice deseret…..you are good at this anti-stuff hah

  65. Jessica Says:

    Is there anyone here who is active in the church or doesn’t hate it at the very least?

  66. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    I don’t hate the Church. Most of my extended family is still active, and they’re good people. On special occasions I’ll attend with relatives.

    DS

  67. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    C’mon…….like Rosie saying….they are not terroists, they are moms and dads like us….

    ok, and they strap bombs to their kids, but be cause they are parents does that give them a pass?

    unbelievable

    This is not the talk of a Christian. They are not all strapping bombs to their children, they are not all terrorists, but they are all human beings. Similarly, not all evangelical Christian leaders are meth-smoking, cheating-on-their-wives, sleeping with male prostitutes sorts of people. Although, there do seem to be an awful lot of Republicans coming out of the closet or revealing weird sexual stuff. Hehe.

  68. Jessica Says:

    Well, you do a good job at finding faults in others to excuse your own.

  69. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    Alright.. Good afternoon everyone. I’m out. I’m going to go enjoy the rest of the day. As much as I enjoy typing out responses while watching DVD’s of “30 Rock,” “Lost,” other heathen-esque shows, I’m deliberately procrastinating and need to get some other things done. Jessica, good luck. You kind of walked into the lion’s den and all of the blowback couldn’t have been easy. I wish you the best.

    DS

  70. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    Well, you do a good job at finding faults in others to excuse your own.

    Which faults of my own did I excuse?

  71. Jessica Says:

    No, but terroist do that….your sick. You are so politically correct that your convoluded. You do a good job at finding faults in others to excuse your own.

  72. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    By the way, Liberal Mormon, did you ever imagine the comments on this sucker would top 70? 🙂

    DS

  73. Jessica Says:

    Leaving the church for one

  74. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    Leaving the church for one

    *rolls eyes* I’m very sorry Jessica, but whether or not that is one of my “faults” is purely your own opinion.

  75. Jessica Says:

    Really, the top 70? Must be beginners luck

  76. Jessica Says:

    ok…everything is my opinion, your isn’t…

  77. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    No, but terroist do that….your sick. You are so politically correct that your convoluded. You do a good job at finding faults in others to excuse your own.

    huh? I’m so politically correct that I’m “convoluded?” I assume you mean convoluted, and how am I so “politically correct” that I’m convoluted, Jess? Or is this just more …. whatever?

  78. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    ok…everything is my opinion, your isn’t…

    No Jess, everything you believe is “right”, and by default, everything which conflicts with your belief must be “wrong.” Finally, we’ve arrived at the ultimate resolution. You are a culture warrior. Well done, culture woman.

    DS

  79. Deseret Spectacle Says:

    Really, the top 70? Must be beginners luck

    70+ comments. Your post generated a lot of opinion. Congrats.

  80. Emily Says:

    Jessica,

    You just need to calm down. We really don’t want to fight with you but you just keep going. I think you need to take a nice deep breath and try to consider what we are saying…

    We are not all going to agree. We have different ideas about what should make America great. We dismiss your argument that Soros has “bought and paid for the Democrats” because it is false. And even if it were true, there is all kinds of money being thrown around on the conservative side, too. It is *not* black and white – there is a lot of ugly in there. We need to be thoughtful about how to best solve America’s problems.

    If I disagree with you or believe from my own research that your claims are but right wing propoganda, how does that make me a bad Mormon? How does that put me in your category of someone with no values? How does a person living in San Francisco become “less moral” than you?

    You started this whole thread by saying that liberal Mormons are “disgraceful” — you said that the values and ethics of the church would mean that no one should *ever* be a Democrat or Liberal if they are LDS.

    These are mighty huge claims and the only thing you can do to support them is spout of right wing pundit rhetoric. I scratch my head, because you have no idea what kind of person I am, what my values are, or what I stand for in my own personal life. You assume that I am an immoral person who has no idea that my own political party is ruining America — and I don’t agree with you.

    If I believe that abortion should remain safe and legal, that doesn’t mean I am immoral — I’m not about to go out and have one. If I think that we should be nice to gay people, it does not mean that I am hoping my sons both become gay. It just means I think we should be nice to gay people and that government shouldn’t be used to discriminate against them – not in jobs, not in their personal lives, not anywhere.

    I could give a rat’s patootie if marijuana is legal or not… because I don’t smoke it and don’t use it. My personal moral compass leads me to my decisions, and I am not lead there by fear of the government coming down on me for doing something that is illegal or immoral.

    And yes, I do believe that gov’t has some responsibility to make sure that people get a fair chance in life. I don’t hate capitalism – capitalism is a major part of America. But there was a time in this country where capitalism almost destroyed this great country. I have studied American history — when the government decided that we needed checks and balances and fair working hours in America’s factories, that’s when America took off as a nation and really became great.

    I love America! I only ache for our country because I want America to remain wonderful. America’s people are great – we’re all different, we have differences of opinion, and we even feel differently about our beliefs in God and the world.

    This whole “George Soros” is bad thing reminds me a lot of the McCarthy trials — lots of things being attributed to him that may or may not be true… but who cares? This is America, where I expect cooler heads to prevail, where thoughtful people will slow down, think rationally, always stand for truth (not propoganda) and always strive do the right thing.

  81. Jessica Says:

    Thank you….about time you came to your senses. You keep ridiculing others…..meanwhile…I am a proud cultural warrior, member of the vast right wing conspiracy, God loving, mother of two who loves this country, believes it was founded on judeo christianity and I refuse to run around and spout anti american, anti president, anti mormon, anti anything except my passion against people like you who can’t stand a dang thing. Do me a favor and move to Denmark or something, not France because an American-like President was just elected.
    Good luck!

  82. Emily Says:

    ps – I am an active, temple going, LDS person. I hold a stake calling and am very active in my ward.

    how does that change anything? For you, it doesn’t. You still don’t believe that I am moral.

    I’m signing out. I have a family to feed.

  83. Emily Says:

    Jessica, you’re just being mean now.

  84. Jessica Says:

    Sorry Emily, I’m new to this, and I may have gotten you confused with Charolette, if yo have managed a way to blend you liberal views and the Church, thats great, I just don’t understand. I can live with that.

  85. Copy And Paste Says:

    If Rosie said something incorrect than more power to Bill for finding her mistake and calling her out…BUT I find it highly ironic that another organization Media Matters (which takes no funding from Soros, look it up) that does the same exact thing to Bill is then called a ‘smear internet site’.

    Another thing – stop copying and pasting other people’s work, think of something original for once in your life or at least cite your work. Did you at least learn that in college?

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270063,00.html

  86. Emily Says:

    Jess,

    that is my point! Derek, the owner of this blog, is *also* a church going liberal. I associate with *many* LDS church attending liberals here in Utah.

    You can’t assume that just because someone is a Democrat or a liberal that they are not a good Mormon. That is how you started your comments and that is why I am continuing to write – I don’t accept that claim.

    By the way – James E. Faust – registered Democrat, and he calls himself a “liberal” — In his 80-something years he has found many ways to blend his liberal views with the church. I quote “”I am a conservative on fiscal and property matters and I am a liberal in terms of human values and human rights. I believe what is says in the Book of Mormon that God loves all of his children equally, black and white, bond and free, Jew and Gentile, and the Lord likewise has compassion for the heathen. As a result I like to see all people enjoy every advantage, every blessing, every opportunity that comes to them by reason of citizenship.””

    If you have a problem with liberal Mormons, maybe you should start with him.

  87. Jessica Says:

    Now I trully understand the blessing of living here in the East, you guys are too complicated. This will be my last entry. I’m done. God loves his children, yes, regardless, but people still have accountablility and consequences.

    I try my hardest not to take things out of context. I cut and paste because I want others to know where I get my information, instead of sharing my opinions based on…….others opinions. No one else in here does that? Someone cut my words out and pasted it on another blog w/out my permission, and chopped up my words. This blogging thing is insane.

  88. Emily Says:

    Accountability and consequences — that’s why we have God. He gets to make those decisions. We don’t.

    I wish you peace.

  89. Jessica Says:

    Elder Faust is 80 years old. The liberals and dem were a lot different 50 years ago, nice try.

  90. Emily Says:

    Jessica, Jessica, Jessica.

    His book was printed in 1999. Not so long ago, my friend.

    And he is still a registered Democrat.

    In the Strength of the Lord: The Life and Teachings of James E. Faust, p. 86

  91. Jessica Says:

    I LOVE THIS COMEBACK…

    One of my sons serves in the military. He is stationed stateside, here
    in California. He called me yesterday to let me know how warm and
    welcoming people were to him and his troops everywhere they go.

    Telling me how people shake their hands and thank them for being willing
    to serve and fight, not only our own freedoms but so that others may
    have them too.

    Then he told me about an incident in the grocery store he stopped at
    yesterday, on his way home from the base. He said that several people
    were in the line ahead of him, including a woman dressed in a burkha.

    He said when she got to the cashier, she made a loud remark about the
    U.S. Flag, lapel pin, the ca shier wore on her smock. The cashier reached
    up and touched the pin and said, “Yes, I always wear it proudly, because
    I’m an American.”

    The woman in the burkha then asked the cashier when she was going to
    stop bombing her countrymen, explaining that she was Iraqi.

    Then, a Gentleman standing behind my son stepped forward, putting his
    arm around my son’s shoulders and nodding towards my son, said in a calm
    and gentle voice to the Iraqi woman: Lady, hundreds of thousands of men
    and women like this young man have fought and died so that YOU could
    stand here, in MY country and accuse a check-out cashier of bombing YOUR
    countrymen. It is my belief that had you been this outspoken in YOUR own
    country, we wouldn’t need to be there today. But, hey, if you have now
    learned how to speak out so loudly and clearly, I’ll gladly buy you a
    ticket and pay your way back to Iraq, so you can straighten out the Mess
    in YOUR country, that you are obviously here in MY country to avoid.”

    Everyone within hearing distance cheered!

    IF YOU AGREE… Pass this on to all of your proud American friends.

    I just did.

  92. Jessica Says:

    I bet that just burns you liberals………

  93. Emily Says:

    Burned?

    Only because you’re passing around an email that has no source or says who this actual “mother” is — give me the name and email address of the “mother” and then I’ll believe you.

    http://www.snopes.com/rumors/lapelpin.asp

  94. Jessica Says:

    Unbelievable, IT DOESN”T MATTER IF IT”S TRUE IN THE LITERAL SENSE, it’s the “moral of the story” I didn’t expect to have the 411 on the origins of this email. Unreal, you are too much for me.

  95. Jessica Says:

    Favorite quote, “It’s God’s job to judge the terroists, it’s ours to arrange the meeting.”

  96. Emily Says:

    Jessica,

    I’m trying to be nice to you, but I just can’t do this anymore. You said it yourself, you sent it over to this list to “burn the liberals.” — why would that burn us?

    – because you think we’re going to change our ways and suddenly do an about face and support the war?

    – because some jerk American soldier told off an Iraqi woman and that is supposed to make us mad?

    – because if we don’t agree, we’re not proud Americans and we should feel bad about that?

    It is you who is unbelievable. I have really tried to be nice and explain my point of view. You don’t seem to have an original thought in your head.

    Peace out.

  97. Emily Says:

    Final thoughts.

    Not that I think you’ll actually go and read this, but my friend, the LDS Bishop Steve Olsen, has this to say about being an LDS Democrat.

    http://www.standard.net/live/opinion/topofutahvoices/103101/

    It’s a good read and sums up how many of us feel.

  98. CV Rick Says:

    I think this says everything we need to know about Jessica:

    Jessica Says:
    May 6th, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    Unbelievable, IT DOESN”T MATTER IF IT”S TRUE IN THE LITERAL SENSE, it’s the “moral of the story”

    The truth actually does matter, jessie. There’s never an instance where it doesn’t.

  99. Jessica Says:

    Yea, nicely said, but I am conservative. Bishop or not, I am conservative. I identify with the Republicans. Hard working, and I am not subscribed to social ideas or enviromental hysteria.
    Thanks for the share. It was a good read.

  100. Jessica Says:

    Nice try CV Rick, but I was talking about the parable of the soldier and the Immigrant, nothing else. I don’t appreciate the spin on that.

  101. Jessica Says:

    The only democrat I know enough about and like, is Lieberman. He’s got good common sense, and the radical dems can’t stand it.

  102. Emily Says:

    Ok, you are conservative. And I am liberal.

    Other than that, we are probably not much different.

    I am LDS. I have two children. I love my country. I subscribe to hard work. I believe in leaving the earth better for future generations.

    If that is hysteria, then I am proud to be hysterical.

  103. Jessica Says:

    Mitt Romney in 2008!

  104. Emily Says:

    The truth always matters. As members of the LDS church, we are *charged* with seeking after truth. Always.

  105. Jessica Says:

    That’s wonderful, but when hollywood tells me to use one sheet on tissue paper to wipe my rear end, joke or not, then sells an autographed guitar made of 3 different exotic woods, I have a problem with that.

    When Gore goes to Hollywood and makes a movie, and stands on a soap box about global warming, flys around in his jumbo jet, and buys carbon offsets for justification…which I may add, benefits himself, because he profits from it.
    That is hysteria.

  106. Jessica Says:

    When Edwards gets a $400 haircut and charges it to his campaign…thats hysteria

  107. Jessica Says:

    When Clinton was too busy committing aldultery in the oval office I may add, and lies under oath and avoids impeachment…that’s hysteria, that’s just awful. Meanwhile, Osama and the extremists were planning 911, while the US was wrapped up in his sex scandal….unexcusable

  108. Jessica Says:

    The big argument is Bush and his administartion are war mongers…have we had another US attack here…no. And STILL we can not prove for sure the exact intelligence and how it was presented. NO ONE will ever have agreements on that. WE DO KNOW that Clinton recieved sexual acts in the Whitehouse. Seriously…..

  109. Emily Says:

    I swear this woman is channeling Sean Hannity.

    The guitar and toilet paper thing, what on earth are you talking about?

    I don’t need to remind you that it was the Republican congress who had america wrapped up in Clinton’s sex scandal. I won’t make excuses for what Clinton did, so don’t try to bait me.

  110. Jessica Says:

    Scandals in the Whitehouse over the last 4 years, some one said earlier. Please refresh my mind….what are they? The whole Gonzalez thing has uncovered NOTHING!…….Bush was an idiot and fired Rumsfeld way too late, I understand that, but the dems apoint Gen Patrayous (sp?) and they now, don’t believe him….who are they going to believe. Dems wouldn’t even meet with the man for an update.

  111. Jessica Says:

    Those are my own words and thoughts, so help me God. Stop the Hannity cop-out!

  112. Jessica Says:

    You see the world through rose colored glasses. It’s obvious…

  113. Jessica Says:

    Go Mitt!

  114. Jessica Says:

    “I swear this woman is channeling Sean Hannity.

    The guitar and toilet paper thing, what on earth are you talking about?”

    You seriously don’t know, what hole do you live under? If you know Hannity so well, you must listen to him?

  115. Emily Says:

    why do you say that? What makes it obvious that I “see the world through rose colored glasses” – geez that makes me mad, is that the whole point? To make me mad?

    Again, you are assuming a whole HELL of a lot about me without knowing much more about me than that I am a Democrat. You haven’t walked in my shoes nor do you have any idea what my experiences are.

  116. Jessica Says:

    I just recently found out Harry Reid was LDS…I am so embarrassed. When he said we had lost the war, he just as well spit in the troops faces. What a thing to say with our soldiers over there. He’s a traitor.

  117. Jessica Says:

    My judement is not on you Emily, it’s the democrat party of which you alliegence yourself with….

  118. Jessica Says:

    This is not the 70’s or 80’s for pete’s sake, the democratic party has now changed. You probably are best suited for Rudy G….socially liberal, but not leftist nut.

  119. Jessica Says:

    You haven’t walk in my shoes either. What if I told you that I am divorced, a divorcee of a marriage concerated in the Washinton DC temple. My husband verbally and emotional tortured me for 10 years. I feared him. When I went to the Bishop for counsil, he told me that my husband was depressed and to stand by him…! I was so outraged. BUT…..4 years later I have forgaven the Bishop that told me that, I still believe in the Preisthood, and I’m sorry that the mortality of that previous Bishop probably skewed his perception on the situation. I had every oppurtunity to turn ffrom the church and blame in in adequacies in the Priesthood, but I don’t. On a social aspect, I have had to be on state aid, I went back to school, am an RN and found a man whom I have never feared.

    Even through all that, I remained conservative to the core. I never expected the Gov. to carry me, I worked even harder than ever before and I preservered. I prayed time and time again for understanding. I wanted to turn my back from the church, but I never could nor would.

    That is where my personal/political/spiritual relate.

  120. Jessica Says:

    So, what is your definition of conservative values Emily?

  121. Dawn Says:

    Jessica, do you realize that you’ve posted 47 comments in less than two days to one “blog” article? I’m all for healthy debate and diffferent perspectives, but 47 comments is a tad extreme, don’t you think? I mean really. If you can’t make your point in say…I dunno…15 comments…then it’s time to stop. Seriously. 47 comments is excessive. As in, almost crazy. And, it’s tough to believe what someone says when you start thinking they are crazy.

    I understand that many of your comments were attempts to defend your position, but still, at some point, you just have to walk away from the keyboard and enjoy your life. Spend the evening with your family. Read a good book. Sit and watch the sunset.

    47 comments…. * shakes head *

  122. Jessica Says:

    Because these are mine:
    During the 20th century, a host of social ills from divorce to teen pregnacy battered the families of America. Social conservatives would like to reverse those trends and once again strengthen the family as the backbone of a healthy nation.
    The Family: Social conservatives believe the family is the backbone of a healthy society. The ideal family structure is a home where children are raised by both biological parents. A child raised in a home with both parents has the best chances of growing up into an emotionally healthy, educated, successful adult.
    In Defense Of The Family
    Conservatives recognize there are loving alternative families, and dysfunction does occur in biological families. However, with things like location and financial status taken into consideration, children raised in single-parent or stepparent homes are far more likely to:
    use alcohol or drugs
    experience emotional or anger problems
    experiment with sex at a young age
    attempt sucide
    suffer physical or sexual abuse.
    Parents Rights: Conservatives believe parents have a primary responsibility for the health and welfare of their children. In general, parents know and love their children best. Parents’ wishes should therefore be given top priority. Parents should be involved in decisions that affect their children, such as which materials public schools expose to them, and whether their children undergo potentially dangerous medical procedues, like abortions.
    Parental Consent Laws
    Life Issues: Social conservatives believe that human life has intrinsic value.
    The abortion of unborn human babies is the murder of human life and should not be allowed in a civilized/ moral society.
    Euthanasia devalues human life. It encourages society to decide the “worth” of human life based on perceived enjoyment of life rather than life’s intrinsic value.
    Stem cell researchers should use only adult cells.
    Pro-Life Issues
    The Death Penalty: People who commit willful murder have shown their disregard for human life, and therefore have forfeited their own right to life. The death penalty offers justice and upholds society’s intolerance of murder. The death penalty is not necessary or just in every situation, but capital punishment should remain legal, especially for extreme cases.
    Sex Education: Social conservatives believe that children should be given information that will help them make wise choices about sexual behavior. The healthiest decision a teenager can make is to remain sexually abstinent until marriage. Abstinence is the best way to avoid unwanted pregnancy, disease, and a host of emotional, relational and spiritual problems that accompany sexual promiscuity.
    On Abstinence
    Morality: Conservatives believe that traditional morality serves as the best protection against the ills that plague society. The government should encourage policies that promote morality and discourage immorality. Personal freedom demands personal responsibility, and liberty is no excuse for irresponsible behavior.
    Compassion: Human beings all have value and should be cared for and protected. The promotion of a healthy society is the first step toward the care of the individuals within that society. Individual citizens should reach out to help their needy neighbors and should not depend on the government to care for them.
    Homosexual Issues: The majority of conservatives do not hate homosexuals, contrary to leftist propaganda. In fact, many conservative groups offer ministries to reach out to the homosexual community. At the same time, conservatives believe that:
    Homosexuality is not necessarily inborn. Environmental factors contribute to the development of same-sex attractions.
    Homosexuality is not a healthy alternative lifestyle. In fact, homosexual behavior is highly dangerous, and the homosexual life expectancy is at least 20 years less than that of the monogamous heterosexual.
    Many religious conservatives believe the homosexual lifestyle is immoral.
    Homosexuals should not be faulted for their feelings, but they are responsible for their behavior.
    The homosexual agenda is harmful both to society and to the sexually confused individual in need of real help. The government should not legalize gay marriage or special rights for homosexuals.
    For more information, see National Association For Research and Therapy of Homosexuality

    In Conclusion
    Social conservatives have great compassion on people, but recognize that the best way for people to be truly happy is for the members of society to engage in healthy, responsible behavior, and to avoid behavior that is self-destructive. Traditional family values promote the highest good for individuals and for society as a whole.

  123. Arthur Smith Says:

    As a Liberal Mormon myself, I thought I’d share my connection with George Soros.

    Yes, that’s right, I, Arthur Smith, of the lds-left list, have a connection to George Soros’s money! He didn’t actually give it to me, but to a good friend of mine. This friend happened to share an office with my future wife and myself while we were in graduate school. Actually, he wasn’t so friendly to us after she moved in, but that’s another story.

    Anyway, back around 1989 (yep, that’s 18 years ago, looong before any of you guys heard of him!) my friend heard about Soros’ Open Society Institute and some grants for promoting science in the former Soviet bloc. As a physicist of Polish origins, he applied for and received money to spend some time at a university in Poland, developing relationships with Polish physicists. Soros’ big idea, as I recall, was that if we kept scientists busy in the former Warsaw-pact countries on basic research and the like, they wouldn’t be tempted to share their weapons-of-mass-destruction skills with terrorists and others who mean us harm.

    I have a huge amount of respect for Soros. He’s a billionaire for a reason – he seems to understand international relationships far better than most political types, and can project his understanding forward to see where things are heading – but he uses that foresight not only to make himself money, but to try to avert the worst consequences. The fact that 9-11 was not a nuclear attack owes in some measure to Soros’ efforts to quash that angle during that perilous time after the Soviet Union’s collapse – he stepped in where the US government was too scared, or too tied by ideology, to go.

    Why is it that the right must always have these “boogeymen” who they see as embodied evil, with claims that bear no relationship to the facts? Yes, there are real people on both sides who have real power – Rupert Murdoch has his own television networks; remind me again what TV, radio, or newspaper outlets George Soros controls? Moveon.org? Is that it? It’s a website – for goodness sakes. I turn on the radio and there are 5 stations running Limbaugh, Hannity and friends. Remind me again what station I have to turn to to hear the Soros channel? I’d love to find it!

    Somehow, even when they controlled everything – the White House, the House, the Senate, the Supreme Court, most major media networks, the airwaves – still, the right spent all its time complaining about liberals. Now that we actually have a tiny bit of this back in true majority hands – namely the House and Senate – it’s as if all hell has broken loose. Were things really that bad when Kennedy was president? That’s the last time we’ve had consistent “liberal” control to anywhere near the degree the Republicans had from 2001-2006.

  124. Jessica Says:

    Because these are mine: Conservative values

    During the 20th century, a host of social ills from divorce to teen pregnacy battered the families of America. Social conservatives would like to reverse those trends and once again strengthen the family as the backbone of a healthy nation.
    The Family: Social conservatives believe the family is the backbone of a healthy society. The ideal family structure is a home where children are raised by both biological parents. A child raised in a home with both parents has the best chances of growing up into an emotionally healthy, educated, successful adult.
    In Defense Of The Family
    Conservatives recognize there are loving alternative families, and dysfunction does occur in biological families. However, with things like location and financial status taken into consideration, children raised in single-parent or stepparent homes are far more likely to:
    use alcohol or drugs
    experience emotional or anger problems
    experiment with sex at a young age
    attempt sucide
    suffer physical or sexual abuse.
    Parents Rights: Conservatives believe parents have a primary responsibility for the health and welfare of their children. In general, parents know and love their children best. Parents’ wishes should therefore be given top priority. Parents should be involved in decisions that affect their children, such as which materials public schools expose to them, and whether their children undergo potentially dangerous medical procedues, like abortions.
    Parental Consent Laws
    Life Issues: Social conservatives believe that human life has intrinsic value.
    The abortion of unborn human babies is the murder of human life and should not be allowed in a civilized/ moral society.
    Euthanasia devalues human life. It encourages society to decide the “worth” of human life based on perceived enjoyment of life rather than life’s intrinsic value.
    Stem cell researchers should use only adult cells.
    Pro-Life Issues
    The Death Penalty: People who commit willful murder have shown their disregard for human life, and therefore have forfeited their own right to life. The death penalty offers justice and upholds society’s intolerance of murder. The death penalty is not necessary or just in every situation, but capital punishment should remain legal, especially for extreme cases.
    Sex Education: Social conservatives believe that children should be given information that will help them make wise choices about sexual behavior. The healthiest decision a teenager can make is to remain sexually abstinent until marriage. Abstinence is the best way to avoid unwanted pregnancy, disease, and a host of emotional, relational and spiritual problems that accompany sexual promiscuity.
    On Abstinence
    Morality: Conservatives believe that traditional morality serves as the best protection against the ills that plague society. The government should encourage policies that promote morality and discourage immorality. Personal freedom demands personal responsibility, and liberty is no excuse for irresponsible behavior.
    Compassion: Human beings all have value and should be cared for and protected. The promotion of a healthy society is the first step toward the care of the individuals within that society. Individual citizens should reach out to help their needy neighbors and should not depend on the government to care for them.
    Homosexual Issues: The majority of conservatives do not hate homosexuals, contrary to leftist propaganda. In fact, many conservative groups offer ministries to reach out to the homosexual community. At the same time, conservatives believe that:
    Homosexuality is not necessarily inborn. Environmental factors contribute to the development of same-sex attractions.
    Homosexuality is not a healthy alternative lifestyle. In fact, homosexual behavior is highly dangerous, and the homosexual life expectancy is at least 20 years less than that of the monogamous heterosexual.
    Many religious conservatives believe the homosexual lifestyle is immoral.
    Homosexuals should not be faulted for their feelings, but they are responsible for their behavior.
    The homosexual agenda is harmful both to society and to the sexually confused individual in need of real help. The government should not legalize gay marriage or special rights for homosexuals.
    For more information, see National Association For Research and Therapy of Homosexuality

    In Conclusion
    Social conservatives have great compassion on people, but recognize that the best way for people to be truly happy is for the members of society to engage in healthy, responsible behavior, and to avoid behavior that is self-destructive. Traditional family values promote the highest good for individuals and for society as a whole.

  125. Emily Says:

    It hasn’t changed as much as the Republican party has changed. Biggest defecit ever seen by our country. Biggest government we have ever had – more spending and pork barrel legislation than ever. Democrats have *always* stood for the people and individual freedoms. Always, that has never changed.

    You asked about White house scandals. Scooter Libby? Jack Abramoff? And now the “Prostitute List” with Randall Tobias? There are more.

    Hey, I don’t agree with everything that every Democrat does or says, either. I was disappointed in Bill Clinton on so many levels. I am not sure I agree that we need to just “get out” of Iraq… but we need to do something.

    But here is the thing, I expect the same of all thinking people – to not just continue to quote other people’s opinions, I want people to study and find out for themselves what truth is.

    For the record… you asked me if I listened to Sean Hannity. Sometimes the TV gets stuck on Fox news and I have to listen, but I’m always right there with my computer, checking his facts. He’s not always right.

    And also for the record – I don’t really listen to news media. I think they are *all* bought and paid for. My opinions come solely from my own research and experiences.

  126. Dawn Says:

    And Jessica….I don’t mean for my comment above to be harsh. I’m trying to help you realize you’re getting a bit too involved in a debate about issues that will never be resolved via the internet.

    I don’t agree with any of your opinions, but I don’t think you’re crazy (yet). Everyone reading your comments understands that you are passionate in your opinion. But, enough already. In the time it took me to post my comment, you posted more. MORE than 47 comments from you now….amazing!!! And for the record, I’m going to stop with this comment. Cyberworld will have to manage without my political and religious two-cents worth. Cheers everyone!

  127. Jessica Says:

    Social progressivism is the view that as time progresses, so should societal mores and morality. Social progressives believe that there is no inherent value in tradition. They argue that all social arrangements – including marriage, the family and gender roles – are not fixed; rather, they should be changed or updated whenever such a change is for the greater good of society or it benefits the people who wish to engage in those social arrangements. The opposite of social progressivism is called social conservatism.

    Social progressives believe that some historical mores are wrong or dogmatic and that present knowledge gained from science and philosophy has disproved many traditional beliefs. In the past, social progressives advocated the right to vote for women. Today, social progressivism in the West generally supports same-sex marriage, birth control, and women’s right to choose an abortion.

    However, social progressives throughout the world advocate a wide variety of different social changes, and separate groups of social progressives may oppose each other because they support change in different directions. For instance, social progressives may be either left-wing or right-wing, depending on the kind of social mores they wish to change. A social progressive advocating feminism in the United States would be seen as left-wing, whereas a social progressive campaigning to outlaw recreational drugs in the Netherlands would be seen as right-wing.

  128. Arthur Smith Says:

    Not to knock Jessica’s spelling again but you can kind of tell it’s a quote when all the words are spelled properly… Here’s the reference to what was just posted:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_progressivism

    Now, did Jessica actually read and understand what she posted? Sounds like social progressivism can often be good no matter your political ideology. Anti-slavery was an example of social progressivism. Civil rights. Anti-smoking. Drunk driving laws. Sounds good to me!

    But she probably won’t read this either 🙂

  129. Emily Says:

    This will be my final post, because I am truly exhausted.

    First of all, Jessica, I never made any assumptions about you. I am really sorry about your disgusting ex-husband and that he did not honor his priesthood as he should. I am also glad that you were able to find the means to work extra hard and pull yourself out of what must have been hell for you.

    Isn’t America the greatest place on earth, that in spite of your family troubles, you could still find means and a way to take care of yourself? Good for you.

    I also have never used any government services, except when my husband’s job did not have insurance, we went to the health department so that our kids could get their immunization shots. Well, I take that back. I use government services every single day when I drive on the freeway or when my kid rides the bus home from school. During another period of time, we were dependent on the graciousness of our Bishop, who helped us to get church food when my husband’s business was failing.

    I was grateful for that experience, and I’m here to tell you, having to use church services for food was the most humbling experience of my life. It was then that I was resolved to always live’s Christ’s example, that we must *always* love one another, and treat each other with love, kindness, and patience, because people go through stuff, usually through no fault of their own.

    You asked what my values are. Really, there is too much for me to type in one post. I’m going to try to find a copy of Steve Olsen’s e-book “Why most utahn’s are Democrats and just don’t know it yet.” — you don’t have to agree with him, but he sums up *exactly* what my values are, as an LDS person, as a Democrat, but mostly as an American. Steve’s comments – I could have written them myself. Steve is also a very good friend and we have had many conversations about this very topic. So I feel that posting his info is appropriate.

    Here is Steve’s blog:

    http://steve-olsen.blogspot.com/ – lots of good things there, especially this one:

    http://steve-olsen.blogspot.com/2006/07/true-utah-values-on-subject-of-church.html

    I need to ask Steve for a copy of his e-book because his campaign site is no longer online… but I will find it and post it soon.

    In closing, if I could get you to just agree on one thing… that Democrats are not evil. You might disagree with us on policy issues and how to solve America’s problems, but we love America, too. Both of us – you and me – only want what is best for *every* American citizen. We just have differences of opinion how to get there.

  130. Jessica Says:

    Jerk, we are not talking about slavery in the 1600-1700’s. Of course I read it. In this day and age, it has taken on it’s more modern role……….Exactly what it says

    Social progressives believe that some historical mores are wrong or dogmatic and that present knowledge gained from science and philosophy has disproved many traditional beliefs. In the past, social progressives advocated the right to vote for women. Today, social progressivism in the West generally supports same-sex marriage, birth control, and women’s right to choose an abortion.

    Or did you just choose to by-pass that!

  131. Jessica Says:

    So how far are you willing to go Mr. Progressive. Again, move to Denmark

  132. Emily Says:

    This will be my final post, because I am truly exhausted.

    First of all, Jessica, I never made any assumptions about you. I am really sorry about your disgusting ex-husband and that he did not honor his priesthood as he should. I am also glad that you were able to find the means to work extra hard and pull yourself out of what must have been hell for you.

    Isn’t America the greatest place on earth, that in spite of your family troubles, you could still find means and a way to take care of yourself? Good for you.

    I also have never used any government services, except when my husband’s job did not have insurance, we went to the health department so that our kids could get their immunization shots. Well, I take that back. I use government services every single day when I drive on the freeway or when my kid rides the bus home from school. During another period of time, we were dependent on the graciousness of our Bishop, who helped us to get church food when my husband’s business was failing.

    I was grateful for that experience, and I’m here to tell you, having to use church services for food was the most humbling experience of my life. It was then that I was resolved to always live’s Christ’s example, that we must *always* love one another, and treat each other with love, kindness, and patience, because people go through stuff, usually through no fault of their own.

    You asked what my values are. Really, there is too much for me to type in one post. I’m going to try to find a copy of Steve Olsen’s e-book “Why most utahn’s are Democrats and just don’t know it yet.” — you don’t have to agree with him on every point, but he sums up *exactly* what my values are, as an LDS person, as a Democrat, but mostly as an American. Steve’s comments – I could have written them myself. Steve is also a very good friend and we have had many conversations about this very topic. So I feel that posting his info is appropriate.

    Here is Steve’s blog:

    http://steve-olsen.blogspot.com/ – lots of good things there, especially the one about Utah values regarding church and state.

    I need to ask Steve for a copy of his e-book because his campaign site is no longer online… but I will find it and post it soon.

    In closing, if I could get you to just agree on one thing… that Democrats are not evil. You might disagree with us on policy issues and how to solve America’s problems, but we love America, too. Both of us – you and me – only want what is best for *every* American citizen. We just have differences of opinion how to get there.

  133. Jessica Says:

    Church members by default fall under social conservativism……..period.

  134. Emily Says:

    Jessica!!!

    No they don’t! the LDS church is more progressive than any other Christian religion. It challenges and tests the “norms” of what Christianity is. the LDS church position on abortion is more progressive than most Christian religions.

    And I for one, maintain that Joseph Smith was a full-on liberal, if not socialist. You will probably have a come-apart over that one.

    And calling Arthur a jerk doesnt’ do much to prove your point, that conservatives are “moral people.”

    To me, moral people are kind to everyone, in spite of differences of opinion.

    My husband says I must stop this. I have wasted my whole afternoon!!

    Signing out,

    Emily

  135. Jessica Says:

    Not all dems are Evil Emily. I promise, I know that. The welfare system of the church is wonderful. The Church is not bankrupt because it is ran effectively. We don’t overtap our resourses. 10% is 10% even in all of the economic waves. The church doesn’t impose tax on us does it?

  136. Jessica Says:

    Smith was a liberal of his time…ABSOLUTLEY…WE LIVE IN DIFFERENT TIMES!!!!!!!! He would be beside himself living in these times of such perversity and exploitation. The early church had to be progressive, or it would have failed. We are embarking on new ground here Emily. Please becareful who you aline yourself up with. Progressive now is not the same as then. Just as poligamy was okay once, but had to stop. We progressed so far, then it was time to pull back. Well Emily, pull back before you have gone too far into the black hole!

  137. Jessica Says:

    Good night. It’s 11:08 here, I have school in the am.

  138. Derek Staffanson Says:

    No, I never would have dreamt that this quick blog post based solely on my impressions of the event would have stimulated 70 comments–let alone the 125 currently tallied!

    I appreciate that most participants have tried to maintain a rational tone, despite the fact that their patience has been sorely tried.

    I couldn’t help but chuckle that Jessica did exactly the sort of thing I was referencing in my post on the Clintons. It seems an irresistible temptation to the followers of the popular conservative champions.

    Is that my good friend Dawn from TMB and assorted online groups? If so, welcome!

    Okay, that sounded bad. Sorry. Welcome no matter whether you are a Dawn I’m familiar with or not;)

  139. Emily Says:

    I am really comfortable where I am. I really don’t need anybody to tell me where I am going. The Liberal people I know love America, they love their kids, and they even love Republicans. 🙂

  140. Jessica Says:

    Derek, you are a phony. Ya right, Dawn is one of your followers….you sir, are a disturbed individual using the church as a talking point to make money on a blog you are sick.

  141. Emily Says:

    Um… Derek doesn’t make any money on this blog. He takes this abuse as a hobby.

    Jessica, I think you need some sleep.

  142. Emily Says:

    or at least you need to lighten up!

  143. Derek Staffanson Says:

    Wait–there’s money in this? Somebody, please, where do I pick up my check!
    😉

  144. Dawn Says:

    Mr. Staffanson, sorry, wrong Dawn. I don’t know you. Thanks for the welcome. For the record, Jessica, I don’t know you either. Just so you are both clear on that. And Emily, so that you don’t feel left out. I don’t know you either. I said I’d stop at two posts, but felt it important to clarify that for all parties involved.

    -Jessica, you’ve surpassed 55 posts…you’re bordering on “crazy” now. Feel free to keep posting if you must, it’s your time you’re wasting. Mine is too valuable. I won’t be posting on this particular post again. You can have the last word if you want it.

  145. Tooele Democrat Says:

    Derek, at the George Soros “Liberals Taking Over the World” Meetings! It’s gotta be. I’m going to start working on getting an invite, I’ll let you know! 🙂

  146. Emily Says:

    Dawn, very nice to meet you. 🙂
    I’m not posting again, either.

  147. Charlotte Says:

    wow. Jessica, you are part of the few that make a bad name for momons. i have so many friends who are LDS who I know would be personally offended at things you are saying. You really need to lighten up.

    God made each and everyone of us different, you know what that means? He loves *all*of*us, gay people, straight people, Iraqi’s and even, yes, even republicans. And yes we are held accountable, for LYING, CHEATING, KILLING, and God willing, aggregious spelling errors.

    and i really cannot believe that you put up a false anti-Iraq email circulated email. That is such garbage. The only purpose of those emails is to promote hatred for other cultures.

    You are very wrong about it not mattering that the story is false. The story makes NO SENSE when it didn’t happen in the first place. I see that crap getting circulated all the time and I delete it, if your type need to circulate lies to make a false point then what are you really fighting for?

    you brush aside this notion that we can all live harmoniously with different beliefs because this is not what you thrive on. you thrive on spouting your belief that you are right and everyone else is wrong and here are thousands of links written by republican propaganda proving that you are right. take a breath, form an actual disagreement point, use some spell check … for God’s sake if no one else’s.

    tunnel vision, irrational behavior, constant arguing while brushing aside pertinent discussion, name calling … if I didn’t know better I’d say you were either drunk or Sean Hannity.

  148. wesley Says:

    Is it safe to come out of hiding? Did she take her broom and go home yet. Now that was truly a spooky afternoon. The running and screaming from the room begin around 3 Pm for me. That display of twisted venomous ranting is what is wrong with the country, there is just too much of that going on these days. No moderation, no tolerance at all for any other view but one, no middle ground, no compromising, no love, no reason, no compassion for others at all for those kind of people. And yes that even reconfirmed to me I’m a happy content bachelor. My heck, that was bizarre ol land.

  149. Jenni Says:

    Lib Mo! You are at comments for one post! This must be a Utah blog record. Congrats!

  150. Jenni Says:

    I put the number 148 (one hundred forty eight) in my above post and it didn’t show up — what’s the deal?

  151. Jessica Says:

    Not all dems are Evil Emily. I promise, I know that. The welfare system of the church is wonderful. The Church is not bankrupt because it is ran effectively. We don’t overtap our resourses. 10% is 10% even in all of the economic waves. The church doesn’t impose tax on us does it?

  152. Part of the Plan Says:

    OMG she’s back! People, I called it over 100 comments ago: she is certifiable. My guess is she resides at either Augusta Mental Health Institute or the Bangor Mental Health Institute.

  153. Emily Says:

    I just wanted to pop in and say that I am personally responsible for over 20 posts! Sorry bout that, Derek! But I just wasn’t going to take this “you are a bad Mormon” thing sitting down! I hope she finds something else to do with her time today. I have work to do!!!

  154. Jessica Says:

    Who cares how many times I post….you folks are really something. None of you commented on the conservative values platform I left last night. I am certain, that you liberal mormons probably make up 10% or so of members in the church. Again, how you alliegence yourself with a party that is so far from moral and family values is uncomprehensable. I’ll take Laura Ingram, Sean Hinnity, Bill O’Reilly, Mike Gallagher anyday over you folks. Why do you think AIR AMERICA was a failure? Because it fell on deaf ears. The conservatives are making a comback. Akon, the hip hop artist was just dropped frm Verizon for assimilating the rape of a 15 year old. This country and it’s liberal excuses are exhausted. The porn, the filth that the ACLU and all of your liberal friends defend is disgusting. I can’t believe some of you look up to George Soros. He funds the Man Boy Love Association as well. What say you?
    Let’s face it, Pelosi, Reid, all of those dems who made all though promises are going nowhere. I pray every night, that someone with moral courage and traditional values gets into the Oval Office in 08. (Go Mitt)
    Until then, I will fight tooth and nail and stand up for conservative, Christian values. -Amen

  155. Derek Staffanson Says:

    Thanks for the congratulations, Jenni, but I must demur. I think I had little to do with the frenzied commenting…

    Hey, I’ve got no problem if Jessica wants to keep posting, Ed (PotP). I think its almost an honor to pick up a resident troll or two. I lost my first one quite a while back, and its almost nice to see another one settling in.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

    Emily, thanks for standing up for me. But don’t worry about keeping it up, particularly if its distracting you from more important things. Her complaints don’t bother me–they really just prove my point about Hannity and the conservative defenders. Its nice to hear from you in any case.

    – Derek

  156. Jessica Says:

    Ok, here’s a challenge, or a dare…whatever, Bill O’Reilly is doing a piece on Soros, your hero…I like you to watch it, and we can debate the Soros thing tomorrow. I’m really curious and interested to see what you have to say. If you think he’s full of it, great, get some counter arguments….anybody up to it?

  157. Jessica Says:

    HA! Internet troll, so that’s the label I get for voicing my opinions. That’s tactful. You give me and conservatives so much bull for name calling and labeling…seems your just as guilty if there is such thing. I guess I’m an internet troll. Cute . Thanks

  158. Jessica Says:

    Augusta, Bangor mental hospital, that’s nice…why don’t you say that to my kids. Such tenderness and humility

  159. Jessica Says:

    I’ll ask again too, any takes on the conservative platform I gave last night?

  160. Jessica Says:

    WOW! I’m proud of the NYT….check this out!

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/washington/06left.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1178558006-j6zaBeZHBrRsclQt1ggXVA

  161. Jessica Says:

    George Soros has now freaked out New York Times, seems they may be feeling the heat of those who are exposing the $ and power behind George Soros. He had disheveled and broken other country’s governments, been inprisoned, and ladies and gentlemen, he will be exposed for the evil man he is.

    Marianne Marsh, great interview on the RadioFactor. She is a democrat who understands and agrees with the agenda of Soros. You should check it out!

  162. Emily Says:

    Jessica,

    Most of us posting here are either LDS, Democrat, or utah residents – or some combination of the three.

    I can only speak for those of us who are all three of the above, but we already know what the “conservative” platform is.

    I think what you are asking is for a debate on the platform, and we’re not going to do that.

    Anyway, conservative is a “state of mind” and not a political party. Some would say that I’m very conservative in my own life – I live well within my means, I don’t smoke or drink, I have never had an abortion, I was married in an LDS temple, I don’t have sex with anybody except for the person I am legally married to, I attend church every Sunday, and I am a business owner, hard worker and very self-sufficient.

    My politics have nothing to do with my personal choices. My politics have to do with my ideals that *every* person deserves a fair chance at being a full and productive citizen in society. Everyone. Even those whom I don’t agree with. Even people who may be “sinners”

    Again, I will quote James E. Faust, who says

    “I am a liberal in terms of human values and human rights. I believe what is said in the Book of Mormon, that the Lord values all of his children equally—black and white, bond and free, male and female, Jew and Gentile—and that the Lord likewise has compassion for the heathen. As a result, I like to see all people enjoy every advantage, every blessing, every opportunity . . .”

    This sums it up for *every* liberal I know. Every single one. This is the basis of liberalism, it is nothing more.

    Faust also says the following, which I think is important to note, here:

    “I also support what has been said by the Brethren—that it is in the interests of the Church to have a two-party system and not to have one party that is exclusively LDS and the other party exclusively non-LDS. Both locally and nationally, the interests of the Church and its members are served when we have two good men or women running on each ticket, and then no matter who is elected, we win.”

    Your contentious tone is not appropriate. I want to have a thoughtful discussion with you, but you just want to debate us and try to stir up anger.

    I’m not gonna go there. I have a business to run and a family to attend to today.

  163. Arthur Smith Says:

    Jessica,

    “[George Soros] funds the Man Boy Love Association as well” – really? On what do you base this assertion? I have never heard such a statement and find it extremely hard to believe.

    On the other hand the leadership of the House Republicans supported Mark Foley for years in his perversion. Look him up in Google if you like. Do you support the Republican party that was responsible for those actions?

    And I don’t know why you think slavery was a matter of the 1600’s and 1700’s. Did you ever hear of the civil war? Remember when that happened?

    Social progressivism isn’t a necessarily good or bad thing. People who want to eliminate abortion or stem cell research are making a moral argument for social progress just like the arguments against slavery, or against alcohol that led to Prohibition, and just like modern arguments for laws banning discrimination based on racial or sexual criteria. Sometimes these are good ideas, sometimes they’re not. Most of us “liberal Mormons” are not adamant “progressives”, but rather pragmatists who see government as neither good nor evil, but a tool that people can use to make the world a better, or a worse, place, as they choose. Our goal is to figure out how to make those choices that make the world better.

  164. Tom Grover Says:

    Jessica,

    What about us libertarian Mormons? Will you dismiss us as disloyal to the Gospel too? After all, as a libertarian I am perhaps the most Godless in the eyes of neocons- I don’t want the government to give my money to others, I don’t care who you marry, what sex your marriage partner is or how many marriage partners you want! You can smoke dope, view pornography and engage in all manner of hedonistic behavior, because as a free individual that is your choice!

    I don’t want to be left out of all the fun the liberal and Democratic Mormons are having. Please direct some of your righteous indignation toward myself and my fellow libertarian Mormons. We’re PURE evil! mwa ha ha ha ha ha!

  165. Emily Says:

    If you want to debate the merits of a person, George Soros or otherwise, then please don’t used biased information, most of it made up.

    If you wanted to find out about the LDS church, you wouldn’t ask our enemies for information, would you?

    Come on, girl. You’ve got to show more intelligence around here if you want us to get in the game.

  166. Hello Dashing Says:

    Bill O’Reilly? That’s your source? Don’t you know that the man is a sex offender? He is *your* hero?

  167. Jessica Says:

    Biased information…..so what resource who you consider unbias? You won’t tackle conservative platform, Emily refuses to do it. No one has said that they were up to the challenge to watch O’Reilly, no comments on the NYT article, Tom doesn’t care about the world around him, and the impact of porn loving, dope smoking, promiscuous people infiltrating our society, and desensitizing our youth. The Church sets standards, yes…what about those kids who parents are less than responsible? I see little girls parading around half naked, they are complacent about the message it sends out. But, that’s okay with you Tom, as long as it’s not you and your family?

    Who cares that muslim kids are allowed to pray 5 times a day in school, but mine can’t even have a “moment of silence” and the word God is equal to a cuss word. Let me guess, it’s not you Tom so who cares?

    Emily, show more intelligence, ah. Aside for my horrible typos, and the points that I have made which contradict your views, are you implying that I am stupid? I’ve read all of the recommended URL’s from you people. I am not AFRAID of exploring “the otherside” it helps me form a more concrete opinion. You people are so afraid of Bill O’Reilly, just admit it.

    Admit that the conservative platform is comparable to the standards of the Church. Admit that implementing them in the political realm as a bulwark to this great countries foundation is crucial. Just admit that. Have the moral courage to admit that. God bless Elder Faust, his heart is in the right place, but I don’t think he is aware of the underground movement of secular progressives in this country who want to demolish the constitution. It’s a new age we are in. If he is unware of that, than he cannot be responsible for contributing to it. I’ve never sat down with the man. You guys know fair well what my accusations are, and your avoiding it like the plague.

  168. Frank Staheli Says:

    Jessica,

    Take off your mask and tell us who you really are. It was entertaining for a minute or two…

  169. Jessica Says:

    Great, that’s intelligent counter argument. That get us….mmmm…where? Is that seriously all you have to say?

  170. Frank Staheli Says:

    Nope. I also have this to say. I can’t believe you are serious. This is not the way a Christlike (Latter-Day Saint) individual would rant and rave. If you are really serious I apologize, but from my perspective, I think you are putting us all on. Taking us for a wild ride. And we are behaving like the little green toy Martians in Toy Story–“Oooooh! The claw!” We can’t resist responding.

  171. Jessica Says:

    Yea, ok…and your alleigence to a political party that contradicts the churches ethical values is…….Christlike? I am just looking for some answers. There was so much said to me, and I simply am challenging you libs, who are democrat and refuse to believe that the canidates, Obama, Clinton and especially Edwards have sold their soul to the devil incarnate, named George Soros. I want to believe that you see the world through rose colored glasses. This is not the sixties anymore, true peace rally’s are hard to find, violence has become the means of so called peaceful protests.

    Ya know, I was thinking today about the transformation of France. The implications of the French electing a socially conservative person. Clearly the socialist way wasn’t working. A big dose of reality hit when they saw the reprocussions of expecting the government to provide for the people. It breeded lazyness, and irrisponsible citizens. We need to actually learn a lesson from them. A conservative revolution WILL take place here in the States. The majority of people will get tird of all the immorality and irrisponsibility of the leaders. Both Republican and Democrat, the partisan politics has got to stop.

  172. Jessica Says:

    GO MITT!

    Feel free to visit my myspace page…check out my family and me, then you have a face to put with the name!

    You have to have/create an account to view.
    http://blog.myspace.com/186470086

  173. Jessica Says:

    Sorry, thats my blog, here is my page:

    http://www.myspace.com/186470086

  174. Alicia Says:

    “but I don’t think he is aware of the underground movement of secular progressives in this country who want to demolish the constitution” – are you serious? Please tell me that’s a joke. It has to be, right? Right? Jessica, seriously … take a look at your own beloved party. Bush has worked hard at demolishing the Constitution on his own. He needs no help from imaginary threats. And yeah, you’re right. We’re afraid of Bill O’Reilly. The garbage he spews is enough to kill quite a few brain cells in only a few minutes. NOBODY should believe 100% what they see on TV. They all have agendas – most stations go both ways on certain issues – especially Fox News. (Am I the only one kinda creeped out that the NRSC multimedia page is comprised only of Fox News clips??) Personally right now I’m judging both parties on what they’ve said and then subsequently done in the past few years (since 2000). Neither side is perfect, but I’d rather ally myself with a party that doesn’t have to resort to hating certain groups to get support or contradicting itself at every turn.

  175. Jessica Says:

    Congrats, you just did…your party is obsessed with hate, and Bush. See, when the dems lose, they act out, act like fools with their protests…when the rep. lose, we regroup and figure out where we went wrong. The ranting and raving belongs to you liberal dems.

    Funny, but here’s a news flash, Fox News Channel is #1 in ratings. More people watch the Factor over the MSNBC republican debate, which was a crock of poop…it wasn’t a debate, it was lets see if we stump the canidates by asking rediculous questions.

    You can’t handle the truth. O’Reilly is truth finder, watch dog and the far leftist can’t and won’t even go near him…you sissy party backed out f the FOX NEWS presidential debate, they bust up and get violent with Fox News Reporters…all you have to do is add the equation up…and it = IDIOTS

  176. Jessica Says:

    People like Sean Penn are dispicable

  177. Charlotte Says:

    Alicia, Jessica doesn’t want to look at the faults of her own party, she wants us to admit that Soros is the devil and that all liberals are following the devil. We are devil worshippers … end of story. Until we admit it and bow down, she isn’t going to go away. Scary isn’t it?

    it is also scary that people like Jessica reproduce … who knows, maybe her kids will go to college and get informed on some issues and even turn out ok.

  178. Jessica Says:

    OMG….ya college, the university of marxism and darwinism….I’m in the crux of it right now. “You dance with the devil, is not him that changes…it’s him that changes you”
    check out my profile…look how happy and well balanced my family is…my kids will be brought up in a house with gospel doctrine, the preisthood and all American Conservative values that mirrors the standards set by the Church. Meanwhile, you keep thinking what you want. You and your mad leftists conspiracy theorists can live in the land of Oz and keep drinking KoolAid

  179. Jessica Says:

    Biased information…..so what resource who you consider unbias? You won’t tackle conservative platform, Emily refuses to do it. No one has said that they were up to the challenge to watch O’Reilly, no comments on the NYT article, Tom doesn’t care about the world around him, and the impact of porn loving, dope smoking, promiscuous people infiltrating our society, and desensitizing our youth. The Church sets standards, yes…what about those kids who parents are less than responsible? I see little girls parading around half naked, they are complacent about the message it sends out. But, that’s okay with you Tom, as long as it’s not you and your family?

    Who cares that muslim kids are allowed to pray 5 times a day in school, but mine can’t even have a “moment of silence” and the word God is equal to a cuss word. Let me guess, it’s not you Tom so who cares?

    Emily, show more intelligence, ah. Aside for my horrible typos, and the points that I have made which contradict your views, are you implying that I am stupid? I’ve read all of the recommended URL’s from you people. I am not AFRAID of exploring “the otherside” it helps me form a more concrete opinion. You people are so afraid of Bill O’Reilly, just admit it.

    Admit that the conservative platform is comparable to the standards of the Church. Admit that implementing them in the political realm as a bulwark to this great countries foundation is crucial. Just admit that. Have the moral courage to admit that. God bless Elder Faust, his heart is in the right place, but I don’t think he is aware of the underground movement of secular progressives in this country who want to demolish the constitution. It’s a new age we are in. If he is unware of that, than he cannot be responsible for contributing to it. I’ve never sat down with the man. You guys know fair well what my accusations are, and your avoiding it like the plague.

  180. Alicia Says:

    “well balanced” – that can hardly be the case if their mother is calling people who don’t agree with her “mad leftists conspiracy theorists [who] can live in the land of Oz and keep drinking KoolAid.” Jessica, I sincerely hope you can overcome the blind faith you have in the Republican party, and that you and your children have happy and meaningful lives. “your party is obsessed with hate, and Bush.” Erm … no. I think you’re confusing the hate line with your own party. Criticizing Bush is not the same as being obsessed. If he were out of power and people were still harping about him then that’s grounds for being obsessed (like the Clinton issue – he hasn’t been president since I was in elementary school and yet he’s brought up all the time). Charlotte – I find it scary too. I go to school with the offspring of these people. (I find it sad that I’m not even out of high school and yet I can easily spot the holes in her arguments :/ Things like that make me fear for the future). Anyway, I do sincerely hope Jessica becomes more open to the possibility that being anything other than a Republican isn’t grounds for being evil.

  181. Jessica Says:

    AAAhhh…I see, you are a high school student. You have a lot to learn sweetie.

    You keep subscribing to Moveon.org, Media Matters…look up to psychos like Sean Penn and Jane Fonda and Susan Sarandon and Rosie O’Donnell…fine examples. Great moral character.

  182. Jessica Says:

    My kids will inherit my Cultural Warrior book, Deliver Us from Evil by Sean Hannity and Godless by Ann Coulter, Rediscovering God in America: Reflections on the Role of Faith in our Nation’s History and Future by Newt Gingrich….by the way, I read Audacity of Hope by Obama…okay, except for the language against conservative values.

  183. Alicia Says:

    Jessica, I would appreciate it if you do not patronize me. I would also appreciate it if you would not say I “look up to psychos like Sean Penn and Jane Fonda and Susan Sarandon and Rosie O’Donnell.” I don’t look up to celebrities or pundits as people to influence me at all. I’m not even sure what Rosie O’Donnell is famous for (I’m actually serious about this – also don’t know what movies Sean Penn has done either – and who the hell is Jane Fonda?), I don’t spend much time watching TV or movies, I’d rather read the news and keep up with what’s actually important. I actually do have a good (not necessarily great because I’m not yet mature enough for it to have developed completely) moral character, whether you chose to believe it or not. I can’t say the same about yours sadly enough. Stooping low enough to *try* to belittle a high schooler? Just because I was born a few years after you doesn’t mean you can treat me like a child who knows nothing. I don’t “subscribe” to Moveon.org or Media Matters. I don’t know enough about them and what they do (other than the few tidbits of information offered here) to form an opinion on them. But you’re right, I do have a lot to learn. And you’re helping me learn that it’s a hopeless cause to try to use reason with some people. Thank you Jessica, you’re slowly eroding my faith in humanity 🙂

  184. Jessica Says:

    See Alicia…that’s a good point. You have no clue of the people in the publics spotlight spewing hatred and Anti-American sentiment.

    Hey, I’m not patronizing, you are slinging crap at me left and right. I think you need to go back and read the awful comments you made to me about procreating. Say that to my kids. You are certainly not a poster person for compassion or humility. The patronizing has been directed towards me!

    Do yourself a favor and go watch Hannity and Combs on Fox News, Mitt Romney is on in a few minutes!

  185. Jessica Says:

    Maybe you’ll learn something.?

  186. Dawn Says:

    Jessica,

    Two things:

    1. Don’t discount the opinion of a high school student simply due to age. Alicia should be complimented on taking an interest in her country and participating in a “debate” that you might consider appropriate only for “adults”, not insulted for it. As “adults” we can learn a lot from high school students. Does the name Anne Frank ring a bell? Her poignant insight about forgiveness of her fellow man even under horrible oppression is something that we should thank a “high school student” for. High school students rock!

    And for the record Jessica, I’m older than you are. Does that mean my opinion automatically holds more value? If age is the deciding factor, then perhaps you and Emily should just post your b-days and call it already.

    2. Personally, I find it in very, very, poor taste that you would post your personal myspace page and blog for everyone to view. I won’t view it and won’t even try. To encourage people to “check out your family” and you, as if that will convince other people to change their opinion, is bizarre. I am not a parent, but I would never put up pictures or information about my children and “family” and encourage the cyber world at large to view it. Once you post stuff on the internet, it could be there for YEARS. I would encourage you to write with your head, not out of emotion.

    I didn’t plan to post anything else after yesterday, but frankly, I’m amazed and saddened at the flying insults that keep coming.

    Truce Emily?
    True Jessica?

    Can’t we just wish each other well in life and then cancel out each other’s votes at the polls?

    (And lest anyone think I’m LDS, I’m a liberal Catholic! As Molly Shannon’s character would say on Saturday Night Live…”Don’t EVEN get me started”!)

  187. Alicia Says:

    Frankly the only anti-American sentiment I see is coming from you. It is American to question those in power. I’m not slinging ‘crap’ at you. Only truth. Unless you see it that way, I don’t really see your point. If you think my comments are ‘awful’ then please look back at all the comments you have made about people who don’t believe the same thing you do. By the way, it wasn’t directed at you specifically. I was agreeing with Charlotte that it IS scary that people LIKE you (those who won’t even acknowledge there’s another viewpoint and that it may have some truth to it). I say that because I go to school with children who can’t see anything outside their narrow viewpoint that it’s their way or the highway. Anything that doesn’t conform is subject for ridicule. That includes me. I don’t join in on the gay or liberal-bashing that happens a LOT among my conservative classmates. I don’t believe that Bush is 100% right. I don’t think liberals are the enemy. Hell, I don’t think conservatives are the enemy either. Though I am harrassed daily by the offspring of people like you, I still stick to my guns. I believe both parties at their core have elements of truth in them, but the one I choose to ally myself with does not rely on scare tactics or hate-mongering. I’m just choosing the lesser of two evils. And thank you but I’d rather not watch Fox News (or any other cable news for that matter), I don’t trust them in the slightest and I think their slogan is laughable. As for Mitt Romney … not even going to talk about him.

  188. Jessica Says:

    LOL, my myspace page has NO INFORMATION ABOUT MY FAMILY> NO NAMESANYTHING! NICE TRY! I am simply being inviting. I’m done. I never meant to discredit her opinion, sorry hon.

    I’m done here. Your welcome to continue a dialog with me. I did give my myspace page out…ty…Jess

  189. Emily Says:

    Guess what! Anybody who doesn’t agree with Jessica is “dispicable”

    Jessica… we don’t want to debate you because you are already convinced that you are “right” and have no interest in even trying to see things differently. You also act like we’ve never read any of this before, that we have never paid attention to it, that we’ve never thought about it, haven’t weight it all objectively. Sorry, dear, but I’ve been there, done that. I’m not going to do it with you. And, I promise, you’re not going to find any converts here.

    I read your “conservative” platform. What do you want me to say, that I’ve suddenly seen the light and I’m going to jump ship and come over to your side? I’ve been active in politics for more than 20 years – I have watched so-called “conservative” lawmakers make policy all across America, and I tell you, there is nothing Christ-like about it. “Conservative Values?” Ha! The proof is in the pudding. I hear what they say vs. what they do and the rhetoric does not match the reality.

    You said:

    “Who cares that muslim kids are allowed to pray 5 times a day in school, but mine can’t even have a “moment of silence” and the word God is equal to a cuss word. Let me guess, it’s not you Tom so who cares?”

    First of all – not true. Any kid can pray in school at any time. They can have a “moment of silence” or whateve they want. There is no law stating that they cannot. Google it. Find out what the law is. When you say things like that, I am convinced that you don’t do the research but just listen to what someone on the TV has said. But if you actually read the supreme court rulings on the matter, you’d learn that the clarification is that there should not be any church-sponsored prayers. Let’s say they overturned supreme court rulings and suddenly, it was OK for schools to sacntion prayer in the classroom. Using your “Muslim” argument – who gets to decide what prayers will be said? Would you want your kids hearing “Muslim” prayers every day as the “school-sanctioned” prayer? Or do you want some anti-Mormon-basher to make the policy regarding what is an appropriate prayer? No, admit that you would not because it wouldn’t jive with your own religious beliefs.

    Really, if you want me to go through and debate everything you’re saying, I can do that. But anytime I say anything, I get a great bit “yeah right” out of your mouth. For example, I continue to quote James Faust, who for all intents and purposes is a prophet of God. You have to admit, he’s high up there on the “with God” level. But you come back experssing your doubt that he knows what he’s talking about, implying that he’s just an old man who doesn’t know anything. If I were you, I’d be careful about calling James E. Faust names and assuming that you know what is in his heart. As a matter of fact, if I were you, I wouldn’t assume that I knew what was in *anybody’s* heart.

    Finally, you want me to “admit” that the conservative platform is THE platform of LDS church values.

    Not gonna do it, and here’s why:

    “Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in the platforms of all major political parties” – The First presidency of the LDS Church, from a letter read from pulpit, May 19, 2006

    Look, Jess – I tend to believe that the church has spoken on this issue. It has stated it’s position, and I’m comfortable with it. Why do you insist on continuing to make this an issue and trying to fight with us over it?

    You asked me where I get my information? I read *everything* I can get my hands on – I don’t listen to Fox news, CNN, MSNBC, or any of the major networks. I don’t listen to Left-wing radio, either. I research all sides of an issue and then come up with what is comfortable to me. I spend hours reading, researching and trying to understand. I know you have a terribly difficult time with that. But that’s what I do.

    I expect the same out of everyone.

  190. Tom Grover Says:

    Jessica,

    I never said those were MY standards, just that I comfortable with others using their FREE AGENCY to determine whether or not they use porn, smoke dope or have marital relations with the same sex. Their choice, as it should be.

    Why should the government impose our LDS or even Christian standards on the rest of the population? What if there was a Muslim majority? Would you want Muslim standards forced upon you?

    Why should the government, ineffecient and corrupt, be the steward of our societies morals? Isn’t the government the WORST POSSIBLE steward of morals? Why not leave it to the individual to decide? Do you trust the individual?

    I do remember a fellow who wanted to force his standards upon everyone else and argued that the righteous ends justified the restrictive means…… could it be….. SATAN?!

    Why should this world be any different?

  191. Derek Staffanson Says:

    This has all been very interesting, and I appreciate the passion of the commentors. But I’m decreeing a moratorium on comments for this post. Please do continue to compliment, critique, criticize, squabble, and flame my views–but please do it on any one of my other posts. There are plenty of neglected posts to choose from 😉

  192. Derek Staffanson Says:

    What, did you think I was kidding? I said no more comments and I meant it. when a post is nearing 200 comments, there has been quite enough chatter. I appreciate the attention, particularly the favorable kind, but enough is enough. Any further posts, whether friendly or hostile, agreeing or dissenting, will be deleted.

    So scram! Git! Off with ye varmints! That means you! Go find another post to loiter on! After over one-hundred scintillating and thought-provoking posts, surely there is something else to talk about.

    😉

  193. Derek Staffanson Says:

    I thought about letting your post stay just for fun, DS, but you know how I feel about consistency. Good or bad, funny or serious, its all gotta go!

    When things started coming fast and furious, I stopped reading all the comments. I only had time to skim. There is a lot I missed, and I wanted to address something I noticed in my viewing since. Its my blog, so I can break the rules if I want 😛

    Aicia, if you’re still reading, I wanted to commend you. Many your age are willing to just go with the crowd, and are more concerned with celebrity and pop culture than the real social and political issues. Good for you! Your willingness to explore issues on your own and challenge peer and perhaps family pressure when you feel it is right is fantastic. Keep seeking to learn for yourself, thinking critically about everything everyone (including me) tells you. Study, ponder, and pray–then go with what all your information, logic, and and Spirit tells you. Whether you’re 16 or 96, your opinion matters!

    Come back to the blog (not this post) anytime!
    – Derek

  194. cb Says:

    ROCKY v. SEAN —

    Yes, Rocky presented a case and Sean was obnoxious . . . but that’s much more of a reflection of WHO these two are rather than the POSITIONS they represent. In fairness to Sean, he did make a couple legitimate points about hypocrisy interspersed between all talk-radio-rhetoric . . . and Rocky just can’t give up the stage.

    From Derek to Aicia–

    “Good for you! Your willingness to explore issues on your own and challenge peer and perhaps family pressure when you feel it is right is fantastic. Keep seeking to learn for yourself, thinking critically about everything everyone (including me) tells you. Study, ponder, and pray–then go with what all your information, logic, and and Spirit tells you”

    The commendation of open-mindedness is admirable, but isn’t it interesting that the only ones the “open-minded” commend for being “open-minded” are those who agree with them? It makes you wonder how open-minded anyone really is.

    All that aside, however, even I must admit, “liberal mormons” are one group of people that are really forced to confront and think about issues. I’m of the opinion that all the thinking they do makes them very reasonable in a lot of respects, and I wish more in the church would treat them that way. While I still don’t understand how my liberal mormon friends reach some of the conclusions they do, I know enough about them to realize that it’s not from lack of faith or thought. . . . I’ll end on that.

  195. Ben Says:

    “I refuse to run around and spout anti american, anti president…”

    Jessica, somehow I doubt that you had too many kind words for President Clinton. Call me a cynic.

  196. Rebecca Says:

    Jessica has obviously never left the US and has no clue about the world. She wrote that “we are the most powerful country in the nation”. Talk about a Freudian slip! People like Jessica think that the US is the entire world. Jessica, please go get an education. Go travel abroad. Go find some way to expand that mind of yours.

  197. Ty Says:

    Wow, Okay so I know that this conversation is long over, but I have to add my two cents. I don’t think Jessica realized that everyone on here thought she was an idiot. Does she think that James E. Faust is going to hell and be “charged with treason” because he was a lifelong Democrat and voted for John Kerry in 2004? Man I’m glad that she is righteous enough to play God for everyone else, including members of the First Presidency. It’s people like her that make Mormons look bad to everyone else and make America the target of hate throughout the world. What a piece of work, hahaha

  198. matt Says:

    There is no point in getting into a contentious argument, it is obvious that people if they actually are lds need to do there research………. listen to Ezra Taft Bensons talk about the evil of Liberalism.

    http://www.ldsvoices.com/index.php?id=64

  199. matt Says:

    Any form of government that redistributes wealth is an evil one, it is truly a counterfeit to the lords gospel and disregards the agency of those that live it.

  200. matt Says:

    ……….And there is now credible evidence that James E. Faust voted for John Kerry.

  201. Annette Says:

    Funny side note. I’m a liberal Mormon (not active, but a believer), and I just came across this blog today. I clicked on Jessica’s posted MySpace link. Since this whole argument, she’s gotten married. In a “less than modest wedding gown” (by “good LDS standards) and has posted photos where she “is drunk to celebrate her wedding”.

    OH the irony!

    Thanks for the thoughtful blog and the amusing after-party!

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